T Mbeki: Transcript of interview on SABC 2 following State of Nation
Address

Television interview by President Thabo Mbeki broadcast on SABC
2

5 February 2006

John Perlman: The President has delivered the State of the Nation address.
Now it’s time for the debates to begin.

Good evening and welcome to this special broadcast on SABC 2 and on our
radio stations across South Africa. From the Union Buildings in Pretoria we are
joined for the next hour by President Thabo Mbeki, as we explore and examine
the vision he set out for South Africa in Parliament two days ago. Mr
President, welcome and thanks for this time.

President Thabo Mbeki: Thank you very much, John.

John Perlman: Joining me as well for this broadcast is Miranda Strydom, my
colleague at the South African Broadcasting Corporation (SABC), our political
correspondent.

Mr President, the economy is at the centre of every South African’s concern.
Now, on Friday you spoke about the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for
South Africa (ASGISA). I want to focus on the word ‘shared’. Transnet is an
institution right at the heart of everything we want to do in our economy and
yet the unions and management are at daggers drawn over the very fundamentals
of what Transnet should be doing. Are you confident that that shared vision is
one that everyone shares?

President Thabo Mbeki: Yes, I’m quite certain about that, John. Just to deal
specifically with the matter that you are raising about Transnet, there’s an
old agreement between government and the Transnet unions, that Transnet needs
to be restructured in order to do the positive things that it needs to do. This
is critical for the future of the country because these transport issues very
much central to what needs to happen. So there is agreement that restructuring
should take place, the unions agree to that. The issue that arose was about
specific negotiations that need to take place in order to effect that
restructuring. And I’m quite certain that the matter will be resolved. There is
agreement that there must be restructuring.

John Perlman: Aren’t we going to run into those clashes with virtually
everything we look to change?

President Thabo Mbeki: No, it is important that we should engage all of the
social partners, we should engage all of the stakeholders in these processes
precisely to avoid that. But I think more important, is to define the roles and
the inputs that people make, so that you don’t have a situation where everybody
says government must do this and that. Because I think people also have to
answer the question, what do they bring to the party, what do they contribute
to this. And that can only be done via a process of interaction and discussion
among all of the stakeholders.

Miranda Strydom: President, you talk about getting the social partners
involved. Is there sufficient buy into this accelerated growth strategy?

President Thabo Mbeki: Well, as I tried to indicate in the State of the
Nation Address, we’ve actually had quite a bit of discussion with the unions,
asked for inputs. I know for instance that even in the last few days Congress
of South African Trade Unions (COSATU) made another presentation to the Deputy
President, in addition to what they had said before. There has been that kind
of engagement. There’s been engagement with business about all of these
matters.

For instance there’s agreement about the need for us to act together to
address a very serious constraint, this constraint of skills. And that requires
government, that requires business, that requires the unions. That is why we
set up this joint committee to deal with this thing to be able to move quickly,
as agreed. The Deputy President also has had an engagement with women drawn
from all sorts of organisations who came together to say, this is the vision of
the women. She had a similar engagement with the youth. And all of them have
engaged with this. In reality, as we said in the State of the Nation address
about ASGISA, there’s actually been quite a fair amount of consultation about
it.

Miranda Strydom: But is there an understanding what ASGISA is, President? Is
it Growth, Employment and Redistribution (GEAR) number two? Is it a new policy
document? What exactly is ASGISA?

President Thabo Mbeki: I thought I’d explained this.

There’s one element of ASGISA which deals with infrastructure, social and
economic infrastructure, the matter that John referred to for instance, about
transport: rail, road, harbours, pipelines, airways, all that and electricity,
water, telecommunications. That’s the infrastructure part, economic
infrastructure part of it.

There’s a social infrastructure part of it, which is the schools and the
clinics, bulk infrastructure for housing, all of that.

You’ve got then the element thrown up by those programs, which is the skills
issue, which will arise also in connection with the other element of ASGISA,
which is the focus on particular sectors, particular industries: chemicals, the
metal industries, tourism, business process outsourcing, agriculture. These
specific sectors have become part of ASGISA. I’m saying that if you look at all
of those you will see that clearly that one of the biggest constraints will not
be money, capital in order to carry out those programs, but will be the people.
For instance, in the work that has been done by the state corporations like
Transnet, one of the things they have found is that because they have not done
serious infrastructure work since perhaps the ‘70s, they have lost a lot of
skills. They do not have project managers. They must get project managers in
order to manage these major infrastructure programs.

So those are elements of ASGISA. I am saying infrastructure development,
social and economic; particular sectors of the economy that need to be attended
to; the skills issue that needs to be attended to and then capacity of
government.

John Perlman: We will get into some of those issues around skills a little
bit later, but I want to ask you a question, Mr President, about how we measure
progress of various initiatives. You spoke about in your speech the phrase you
used was ‘significant job creation’, and yet six… 55% of the 658 000 new jobs
created to date, September 2005, are in the informal retail sector. In other
words, hawkers. Now you could argue that that’s job creation, you could also
say that’s a reflection of a failure to create jobs.

President Thabo Mbeki: No, if you look at many economies around the world,
that informal sector is very much part of the development of any economy. The
reason that anybody is able to run a little shop in a township and it runs
successfully, is because there are people in the community who have got money
to buy things from the shop. And that gets generated from somewhere else in the
economy. So I think it’s incorrect when you look at the economy of South
Africa, the economy of Italy, the economy of wherever, to discount that sector
of the economy which is called informal. It always is a very important
part.

John Perlman: But don’t we need a more comprehensive measure if we’re going
to look at an initiative like ASGISA in two years’ time and say, where have we
got? I mean, to factor in for example the extent to which people can actually
make a living from that economic activity, shouldn’t that be the definition of
a job?

President Thabo Mbeki: Sure, I’m talking about these various sectors of the
economy which we’ve identified.

Just take one of them, what is called business process outsourcing, which
has to do with what’s been happening in many countries, the most outstanding
example being India. Big corporations around the world hand over the computing
work, the maintenance of accounts and all of this, outsourced to some companies
in India. So this work is done there, in call centres and that kind of thing,
and that creates lots of jobs. Major corporations have been saying, South
Africa is in a very advantageous position in terms of, for instance Europe,
because we’re on the same timeline and we could be doing that work here so that
by the time they get up in the morning to go to work we report back from
here.

When we say let’s develop that sector of the economy, it will create jobs.
When we talk about issues of import parity pricing and mentioning particularly
steel and chemicals, it’s because we want those sectors of the economy to grow.
The country is producing the chemicals that would go into further production.
The country’s producing the steel that would go into further production. But we
are buying those materials here as though we’re importing them, which then
suffocates the growth of those sectors of the economy. So you want to deal with
that import pricing issue, in order to make these inputs affordable, here, that
will result in the growth of the metals and metallurgical sector. It will
result in the growth of the chemicals sector and therefore the necessary
jobs.

John Perlman: We’ll get back to ASGISA, we’re going to have to get used to
that, the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, quite a
mouthful. But I want to talk local government. It is very much on people’s
minds because of the election. You remarked on that yourself in the State of
the Nation Address, you said 45% of South Africans are satisfied with the
service they get at local level. Now our SABC reporters are travelling around a
lot to different areas, they often come back and say that people draw a link
between poor service delivery and corruption. You’ve drawn that link yourself
and spoke out strongly against corruption, yet in KwaZulu-Natal the African
National Congress (ANC) in that Province has put someone involved in the
Travelgate Scandal at the top of their list. Do you think members of your own
party misunderstand how serious you are about this?

President Thabo Mbeki: Well let me say John, you know that during the year
2005 we changed the Izimbizo Programme, because before that, what we were doing
was going to communities and asking the communities to come and raise whatever
issues. We decided last year that we need them to take the next step. We’ve
heard what the people said. We’ve heard what their complaints are. We need
therefore to look at the actual functioning of the system of local government
to see why local government was not doing the things that they were expected,
why the people are complaining.

So what we did in going around all the provinces was to talk to the mayors,
the municipal managers, councillors in charge of particular portfolios, as well
as ward committees to get an understanding of what the problem is.

And fundamentally the problem is not a problem of corruption, it’s
fundamentally a problem of lack of capacity. You see you run a town with no
engineers who are able to run your water system, your sewerage system and it
will break down. Senior managers that you need to get this thing moving aren’t
there in many of these places, so there are problems of that kind. Not
corruption.

John Perlman: The corruption comes into it. I mean, are you not
uncomfortable giving how strongly you’ve spoken about it, you referred to in
your online letter to the ranks of our movement being corrupted by a
self-seeking spirit… you clearly feel passionately about this. Someone involved
in corruption could well be the mayor of a prominent municipality, six seven
months after the scandal.

President Thabo Mbeki: You see, I am not underestimating the importance of
corruption but I am saying, fundamentally the problem of delivery, of weakness
in delivery, arises out of that capacity question which we are trying to
address.

But most certainly the issue of corruption is an issue that we’ve got to
attend to. It does worry me a great deal, because it seems to me that there are
many people who think that they should come into government for purposes of
self-enrichment, that this is one of the easiest ways to get hold of money. And
it is therefore something that we’ve got to attend very closely.

When we approved the Municipal Finance Management Act (MFMA) we removed the
task of awarding tenders from the councillors and gave it to the
administration, so that these politicians who sit there as councillors are not
the people who should decide on tenders. It should be somebody else who is
there as an official is not elected and thus isn’t subject to those sorts of
pressures that these local politicians would be.

It is an important question and I haven’t discussed this issue of the one
you that you referred to, in KwaZulu-Natal. I haven’t discussed it either with
the national list committee or the provincial list committee as to what
happened where but most certainly it’s a matter that we have to combat very
continuously.

Miranda Strydom: But President, just to come back to the issue of the
skills, that you say there is no enough capacity especially at the local
government level, if we take for example the Extended Public Works Programme
(EPWP), the projects, do you think it is a sustainable solution to this job
creation, because you find a situation as you mentioned, building roads,
schools, clinics - is it sustainable? Because what happens then to those who
have been in or after the construction phase, what happens then to those who
are employed in that position?

President Thabo Mbeki: We are trying to address a number of things in the
EPWP, one of which is the infrastructure programme. Roads must be built and
schools must be built and clinics must be built and all of that, and
maintained. So whatever else happens, that infrastructure has got to be put in
place. That must be one of the outcomes of the EPWP.

The second thing we are saying is that while people are employed in that
Public Works Programme, it also serves for purposes of poverty alleviation,
because while they are working there they are paid, these are the people who
were unemployed yesterday and now they’ve got a job.

But in addition to that, while they are working there they need to be given
training. Some of it, a lot of it, is just adult basic education, because you
are getting people who are illiterate, so they must get that other basic
education to be literate, to be numerate plus to get skills. This is one of the
matters on which we should focus, so by the time you’ve finished whatever
particular projects, you have somebody who has skills now that are marketable.
You can see for instance, with this major infrastructure programme that we’ve
announced, there is clearly going to be the need for more workers, but modern
construction doesn’t just require a “daka [cement] boy”, it needs people with
some skills in construction.

So the EPWP must really focus on the matter of the provisions of these
skills, so that these people are then able to get more normal jobs as it were,
rather than this kind of job.

John Perlman: Skills and capacity in municipalities, you highlighted it
yourself, now the South African Institute of Civil Engineering had this to say,
they by the way point out that 74 out of 231 of our municipalities have no
civil engineers, no technologists, no technicians, which is alarming for things
like water supply and at safety but this is the explanation Mr President, and
I’d like your response. They say policies developed over the past 12 years
relating to early retirement, affirmative action, employment equity etcetera
have seen large numbers of senior professionals leaving local government and
other state organisations. Did we perhaps go too quickly on the equity stuff on
the one hand advancing a relatively small number of black people at the expense
of a much larger number of black people who depended on their services?

President Thabo Mbeki: I don’t know John. I think that I would need to have
more of a closer detailed look at that to see whatever report that assessment
is based on. We have for instance said, as you know, that indeed we would like
to get even retired people to come in and fill the skills gap.

Thats why I was announcing in Parliament that the first batch of 90 will be
deployed in May. These are names and CVs supplied, for instance, by the Freedom
Front (FF) and other people who say that here are people, many of them retired,
not pushed out of a job, but who are ready to work and they are ready to come
back.

No I don’t believe that the decline in these numbers has being caused by
that. You know the history of South Africa. The Lekoa Bantu Municipal Council
did not have civil engineers when it was there during those Bantustan years. So
it’s there now and needs those people. So I don’t think it is so much a matter
of attrition in terms of people who are there, but it’s the expansion of the
system of local government to cover all of the population groups in South
Africa and that’s put the pressure on the skills issue.

John Perlman: But you’re sending a strong signal, aren’t you, by talking
about those retirees that are coming back that you want to draw on all the
skills of all South Africans if you can. Presumably in what, mentoring roles,
that kind of thing?

President Thabo Mbeki: Well some of it is just straight forward because
there isn’t a civil engineer as the civil engineers are saying, so we put a
civil engineer there. But some of it indeed is mentoring, because in some
municipalities, I know Kroonstad for instance, they’ve got young engineers
there who recently qualified and most certainly would be able to do with
somebody more experienced to mentor them and to help develop them and so on.
And that goes for the managers too.

You need people with experience to come and assist them, to help them
develop, to sharpen their skills, so it would both be a straightforward
employment but also strengthening the capacity of people who might be there
already.

John Perlman: 37% of our managers have less than five years experience in
local government, so I’m sure that would come in as something very valuable

Miranda Strydom: President, if we can just go on now to talk about the
economy. , there’s a very sunny perception of the South African ecomomy. We’ve
heard people talking about the economy firing on all four cylinders. The
Economist actually said it’s a very sunny perception. But there also is concern
about the public/private investment into or economy; something like 15-16% of
gross domestic product (GDP). What would you like to see Business doing, as one
of those that you mentioned during your Sate of the Nation Address? Do you
think they would be able to participate a little bit more in achieving those
targets?

President Thabo Mbeki: Well as you see we are saying that a principle driver
in terms of economic growth with the regards to the 6% plus that we must reach
must be investment in the economy.

We’ve got to raise the rate of investment in the economy, by both the public
and the private sectors. So the government has indicated what it is going to do
with regard to it’s own investment programmes and I must say that would include
better supervision of capital expenditure by the provinces. Because this has
been a problem that even when funds are available for capital expenditure you
get under spending.

So the government has said this is our infrastructure investment programme
for the next 3 years, these are the sorts of sums of money. But the people who
are going to invest in the chemical industry or the engineering industry or
business and process outsourcing, that’s the private sector.

So we are engaging them on each of those sectors to say: what are your
plans? What are the constraints? What is the problem?

You get, for instance, responses from some business people who say well,
it’s true that we’ve got capital, we can invest, but we don’t know to invest in
what. So all right, let’s sit and work together on those things. When we talk
about, for instance, reducing the price at which manufacturers buy steel, we
should be able to say we’ll get these prices down so that people don’t buy
steel as though they are buying the steel in England when it is produced here.
So, now with this cheap steel available, what are you going to do?

So, we are engaging the various sectors because that’s the only way to
understand their business plans and to understand whatever constraints they may
have with regard to undertaking this new investment.

Miranda Strydom: Just talking of constraints, President there is an idea
that the labour laws may have to be changed. Is this one the constraints the
President sees needs to be addressed?

President Thabo Mbeki: No, you will remember of course that a lot of this is
negotiated. Labour legislation goes through National Economic Development and
Labour Council (Nedlac), so government, business, unions are involved when
those negotiations take place and we want to respect the fact that those
agreements are not unilateral government things. We believe that the framework
is correct, but also have then said but we need to look at the impact of the
entire regulatory framework on the person who wants to start a small
business.

And it’s not just a labour thing, - let me give you a specific example.
There’s clearly a serious problem in government in terms of making
environmental impact assessments. You get situations where it will take three,
four, five years for the government to do an environmental impact assessment
and during that whole time the person wanting to invest can’t move, because the
assessment is not done. It’s a government problem.

So I’m saying there is a whole variety of things that you want to look at to
say what are these things that make it difficult for people to open a business,
employ other people, help to grow the economy and you must deal with those and
it can’t just be labour issues.

John Perlman: Skills, we keep coming back to that. Now there’s a big push to
raise skills levels. At the same time, according to a study by the University
of Stellenbosch, spending on higher education as a proportion of budget spend
has dropped by 17%. In five years universities’ share of education expenditure
has fallen from 12.5% in 1987 to less than 9% in 2003. Shouldn’t the trend be
moving in the other direction? Are we failing to invest in what could be part
of our economic strength?

President Thabo Mbeki: One of the things that we are doing is to re-equip
the Further Education and Training (FET) Colleges. I’ve been to some of them
and we find that the equipment that is used to train artisans, which is the
kind of person we need, is antiquated. The teachers themselves will tell you
that, yes indeed we’re training these young people here to give them into the
market and when they get a job they find that the equipment they’ve got to use
there is so much more modern than the equipment they’re trained on, that they
need to be retrained.

So we are re-equipping those FET Colleges, giving them the resources. That’s
a critical element you need. You need to improve output from the FET Colleges,
sort out the skills that are needed.

We need to link that up to the Sector Education and Training Authorities,
the SETAs, which also have this responsibility of mentorship, of learnerships
and so on in order to help produce the skills and the universities. You know
that we’ve got a working group with the university leadership and we have
raised these questions with them to say: let’s have a look at the way in which
our system of tertiary education functions. What kind of person is it
producing?

John Perlman: But are we falling behind on the University spending? Do you
have concerns in that regard?

President Thabo Mbeki: Sure, as I say, we are looking at the entirety of the
system of our education, together with the vice-chancellors, rectors and all
sorts of people, to say: let’s look at it; what is it that we want to do, so
that once we’ve sorted that matter out, we can look at the question of what
does it cost. I don’t have those figures that you mentioned. We’ll talk for
instance about the monies government makes available for the education of young
people who come from poor families. Nobody can say that it has dropped.

John Perlman: That’s included but someone argued that should be in addition,
but perhaps something we could explore further.

President Thabo Mbeki: Yes sure, but I think the matter of resource
allocation is always difficult. The historically black universities for
instance will tell you a different story and say that you still have this
disproportion in terms of the allocation of resources between them and the
historically white universities. This is really work in progress, but I’m
saying that one of the central issues we’re discussing with the university
principals is how you fashion, redesign, reposition universities to be relevant
with regards to matters of skills training, with regards to matters of
research, whether fundamental or applied and what sort of resources you would
need in order to meet all of it, not to say that they will obviously be
available, because you have competing demands in the society.

Miranda Strydom: President you mention in your State of the Nation Address
that government will intensify negotiations with the Financial Sector to help
generate the funds to develop and promote small, medium and micro-enterprises
(SMMEs). What’s taking so long? Surely this process should have moved by
now.

President Thabo Mbeki: One of the problems that’s arisen is indeed in terms
of the Financial Services Charter. All sorts of sums of money were committed,
like this R42 billion for housing, but then as we get into the detailed
discussions about disbursement of those funds, the financial sector says only
on condition that the government gives guarantees. We are now taking onto the
budget an issue which wasn’t there, so we now have to discuss that with them,
government guarantees in order to be able to release these sorts of sums of
money, shifting the entire risk to government. I don’t think it is correct, but
these are some of the problems that would then arise.

John Perlman: One of the sectors you spoke about for potential accelerated
growth is agriculture, but of course there are thorny land questions, you said
that you are going to be reviewing “willing-buyer-willing-seller” and generally
looking at the framework for redistribution, what do you say then Mister
President to the argument that there are problems on government side that are
holding the process back? I’m referring for example to the fact in Limpopo
Province, the National Council of Provinces (NCOP) reported on a R100 million
land redistribution programme that’s fallen into complete disrepair, lack of
backup, lack of funds, lack of skill. You put in place the Comprehensive
Agricultural Support Programme, in the Eastern Cape - they spent 32% and in the
Free State they spent 8.5%. Shouldn’t government be sorting out some of its own
stuff in regard to land before moving on the market like that?

President Thabo Mbeki: I think we should do both.

When I was saying earlier that one of the things that we’ve got to look at
is expenditure of investment funds by the provinces, I was talking about things
like that. Quite correct, with this agriculture support programme, for
instance, there has been underspending and again I quite agree with the NCOP
where you have had projects like this agricultural one that was started but
because of weaknesses in the provincial agricultural departments, they don’t
get the necessary support. I agree entirely.

But that’s precisely part of what we’ve got to do, that’s why we’re looking
at the capacity of government. That’s why we are going from department to
department to say, at Housing, at Agriculture, Trade and Industry, let’s really
see if we’ve actually got the capacity to do these things that we say should be
done and discovering that in all the departments are looked at, we have very
serious shortfalls, huge number of vacancies. This kind of problem must be
addressed.

John Perlman: Mister President, let’s stay with the land thing just for a
little bit longer. You must be concerned, given that jobs are at the heart of
what you are trying to do with all economic policy, at the job losses in the
Agricultural Sector. 138 000 jobs in a year, nearly half a million lost since
September 2003. How do you see the changes that you want to make in agriculture
with regard to ownership, taking cognisance of the need to keep people employed
in that sector?
 
President Thabo Mbeki: You know that we have set up the fund Mafisa
[Micro-Agricultural Finance Schemes of South Africa] to run as it were parallel
to the Land Bank. The reason for that is that it was clear that with regard to
the small so-called emerging farmers the cost of capital from the Land Bank was
too expensive. Therefore we needed to set up a different fund in order to
finance small farmers, new emerging farmers. I think that from the point of
view of job creation in agriculture, that is where the jobs are going to come
from, because what has happened with South African Agriculture over a period of
many years has been an increase in the level of mechanisation of agriculture.
It is a natural consequence, higher capital intensity in agriculture, you can’t
stop it. I am quite certain that with the development of small business
agriculture, bringing in new people, that’s where you are going to get growth,
in terms of agricultural employment.
 
Miranda Strydom: I would just like to focus on the industrial policy you
mentioned in the State of the Nation. What form is this going to take and who
will be involved in this one?

President Thabo Mbeki: When you talk about industrial policy you are talking
about the totality of the industrial sector.

For instance, among the things that we don’t mention in this particular
sector in the context of ASGISA is mining. Mining is a very important sector of
the South African economy. In a comprehensive program you would include
mining.

If you ask me to elaborate a program with regard to the development of
mining, one of the things that I would say is that we need to open up the
sector to the smaller miners. Historically this country has got big mining
houses and very few of the smaller people who would help to grow the sector and
in many instances with less capital intensity than parent companies need to be
grown.

Then you would have to say that if we are taking that route, let’s get more
small mining people into the industry. What is it that you would have to do to
achieve that result? There has been a discussion in the country that there is a
weakness in terms of venture capital, in the South African financial market. So
the small people don’t get access to the monies that they would need in order
to develop. So you would have to find a solution for problems of that kind.

A comprehensive industrial policy then would have to deal with everything
and put in place taxation policies, training policies and any other policies
that will make sure that that industrial policy succeeds.
 
John Perlman: Mister President doesn’t it worry you though that the emphasis of
Government has always been redistribution, yes, but growth at the same time.
Doesn’t it concern you that some of the things that you are describing allow
people to acquire a foot hold in the industry, acquire a stake and grow a big
company but not necessarily grow that sector of the economy. You could grow
huge merely on Black Economic Empowerment (BEE) deals and acquisitions without
creating a single new job or opening a single new factory.
 
President Thabo Mbeki: The Government programs are not preoccupied with
acquisition of existing assets. What we are preoccupied with is the creation of
new economic activities. One would talk about agricultural development and all
that. We want, not somebody who is going to go and buy a share in somebody
else’s farm, but somebody who is going to start a farming activity.
 
John Perlman: But the charters tend to push you in that direction, don’t they?
Just get a share in a business that already exists.
 
President Thabo Mbeki: There is private sector activity in this area and
sometimes people mix these things up. There are private individuals that will
indeed take that route. Go and borrow money from a bank, buy a 10% share in
somebody’s company and all of that. That is a private sector activity and you
cannot stop it. You cannot say that it is prohibited to acquire existing
assets.

The Government programs are focused on developing the economy, the thing
that Miranda was talking about. When we talk about accessing funds by the
financial services charter, it is not for the sole purpose of buying existing
assets. It is generating these resources that the small and medium people need
when they raise this question very sharply of one of the worst problems they
face as small business people is access to capital.

So we say all right, let both the government and the private sector apply
that capital for people to start new economic activities and not to acquire
existing assets. That is what is happening now.

All of your big people, the highfliers in this economy were seen as
successful black business people because of the acquisitions, none of them has
acquired because of Government intervention, these are private things that they
do and they will happen but government’s focus is somewhat different.

Miranda Strydom: President if we can now move now onto Foreign Policy, given
the outcome of the Palestinian legislative elections and Hamas being there now.
What sort of relationship do we think we have now with Hamas?

President Thabo Mbeki: We have an agreement with Hamas and the Islamic Jihad
that we need to meet. We had agreed on this before the elections. We have
discussed it, of course, with Fatah and the Palestinian Authority and they had
no problem with that. We will engage with Hamas in the context of what we had
agreed about before the elections, engaging with them to see what we could
contribute to further movement in regards to this particular matter. There
should not be any problem in terms of any interaction that will happen with
them.
 
Miranda Strydom: Even with the concerns, it is said in media reports that Hamas
is continuing to say that they will not recognise Israel. Does this not concern
you?
 
President Thabo Mbeki: We have said in the State of the Nation Address that
fundamental to the solution of this problem, is a creation of a Palestinian
State but also a secure Israeli State. The two state solution, as far as we are
concerned, is the only way to approach this matter. Whoever constitutes the
Palestinian Authority, we believe, would have to pursue that goal. Even the
existence of the Palestinian Authority is a result of a negotiated agreement.
The Palestinian Authority came out of the Oslo agreements and so it was
established in that context.

So you can’t say, I will constitute the Palestinian Authority which came as
a result of those negotiations and ignore the rest of the obligations that
arise out of those agreements.

We’ll engage Hamas on these things and really do genuinely believe that
there really isn’t other way to solve this matter, except a two-state solution
and the implementation of the roadmap, which everybody had agreed to.

John Perlman: Mister President you didn’t mention Zimbabwe in the speech
that you gave on Friday. Two years ago in this interview you expressed optimism
that talks between Zanu PF and the Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) could
bear fruit within two months, that was in response to something the MDC’s
Professor Welshman Ncube said. Now the fact that you didn’t mention it at all
does that suggest that our engagement with Zimbabwe is not yielding any
fruit?

President Thabo Mbeki: Well, as you can see the Zimbabweans have been
involved with their own problems. The MDC has got its own serious problems. At
some point they came to us, one of the groups, the Secretary General, the
Vice-President and so on, they asked us to assist to mend the relations among
themselves. It didn’t work. We tried to intervene, but I think that the rupture
had gone too far, so they are in the process of sorting themselves out. I don’t
know what is going happen. We are watching that, because we still believe that
really the Zimbabweans need to engage and find their own solutions.

You know that at a certain point, John, I said that the Zimbabweans were
talking to each other and they would find a solution. They were engaged in what
were described as informal talks. What I didn’t say then, because they didn’t
want us to say it then, was that they were actually involved in negotiating a
new constitution for Zimbabwe, and they completed it.

Those are some of the matters we had thought that they would then follow up
themselves. They had done this Constitution, they gave me a copy, initialled by
everybody, done. So we thought the next step then must be to say, where do we
take this process. But as I say then new problems arose. We watch the situation
and to the extent that we can help in future, we will.

Miranda Strydom: President, if we can just turn to the question of Iran.
When you addressed the 60th general assembly last year, you did call for a
peaceful resolution to this matter, but now obviously Iran is being sent to the
United Nations (UN) Security Council. What is South Africa’s position now that
the process is at this point?

President Thabo Mbeki: Well, we still believe that it’s important to find a
negotiated resolution of this matter. And indeed our position at this latest
meeting of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) was that we should
await a report which the Director-General, ElBaradei, is preparing which would
be presented to the board of IAEA in March next month. That we should await
that report and only then get the IAEA to submit that report to the Security
Council.

So we’re not opposing the discussion of this matter by the Security Council.
But it seemed to us only logical that instead of doing it now, you could take a
decision now to refer the matter to the Security Council, but do it having had
sight of this report, because you’ll get a report in March next month which
might say something else, questioning why was it necessary to send this thing
to the Security Council at all in the first place.

But I think that there were some countries there that had in a sense over
committed themselves to this kind of action now and it seemed only rational to
ask to await that report of the Director-General and then refer the matter to
the Security Council, we have no problem with that.

But anyway the decision has been taken now, but I don’t think it takes away
the need still to find this negotiated resolution. Indeed, happily everybody
says the same thing.
So we’ll continue to engage everybody including the Iranians on this matter, to
find a solution. Because the Middle East has got enormous problems. There’s the
Israeli-Palestinian problem, there’s the Iraq problem, some confrontation
that’s developing around Syria and Lebanon. Now you want to add Iran to
this.

It seems to us exceedingly, exceedingly urgent that all of us should find
ways and means by which to de-escalate these conflicts that are taking place
there. And there’s no need to use the Iranian thing to raise these tensions
further. So we would continue to pursue this thing. Let’s find an agreement, an
agreed resolution on the basis of no nuclear weapons for Iran, absolutely, but
respect for these provisions of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, which
says all members are allowed access to this technology for peaceful
purposes.

John Perlman: The other big international thing we’re involved with over the
next four years is the 2010 World Cup. Now, you were scathing in your criticism
of the players after our performance in Egypt. Why did you spare the officials,
the people who run South African Football African (SAFA)?

President Thabo Mbeki: Well, I think we have to engage the people who run
SAFA. Indeed we should have spoken about that also. Because truly it can’t just
be the fault of the players. The reason that we spent so much time on it is
because I saw Sepp Blatter two months back and he insisted as president of FIFA
that from July 2006 all eyes are on South Africa, once the tournament is over
in Germany and all eyes are going to be on us on a daily basis to make sure
that we prepare properly for 2010. So it seemed to me correct that we should
raise this matter. I agree, we have to engage SAFA. We’ve got to engage the
Local Organising Committee for 2010 to make sure that they do indeed discharge
their responsibilities.

John Perlman: On that Local Organising Committee, I’m going back to your
speech again Mr President, I found it quite pointed that you referred to the
need, and I quote, selfless dedication by the local organisers of 2010.
Implicit in that, are you saying that soccer, amongst other communities in our
country perhaps, is prey to delivering less than selfless dedication? Do you
have a genuine concern there?

President Thabo Mbeki: I have. You see, I think that you will no doubt find
people who will want to engage themselves in those preparations for 2010, with
a view to getting business possibilities for themselves and not so much focused
on the matter of ensuring that we have a successful 2010 World Cup. So we’ve
got to make sure that whatever selfish interest people might have, particularly
in the local organising committee, they leave those ones at home.

John Perlman: Any ideas on how we do that? I mean, perhaps a charter of
ethics, a code of conduct? Any thoughts?

President Thabo Mbeki: Well certainly. You know that FIFA is also going to
be opening an office here. And I’m quite sure that we would draw properly from
their own requirements with regard to this, and a number of countries that have
hosted the Soccer World Cup have offered to assist. Even the Germans are very
keen that we should watch now what is happening, and they would stay with us
after that. You might need a code of conduct, but I think it’s going to require
some vigilance - I don’t sit on a committee like this, with a view to getting
John Perlman a tender to do one thing or the other, and he gives me 10% back of
that. So that we do the right thing.

John Perlman: Let’s stay with that. I mean, is government going to play a
role in that?

President Thabo Mbeki: We’ve got a number of Ministers who serve on the
Local Organising Committee: necessarily Finance, the Deputy Minister of Finance
is there because the government has had to give all these financial guarantees
for this. So the Deputy Minister of Finance sits there. The Minister of Safety
and Security sits there because of all the security considerations. Naturally
the Minister of Sports and so on. So you’ve got a number of ministers who sit
there. They are part of the Local Organising Committee, and the remarks I’m
making affect them as much as anybody else on that Local Organising
Committee.

President Thabo Mbeki: I just want to come back to our responsibilities on
the continent, President. The Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) is one of the
most historic elections we’ve seen in years in the Congo. Are things, systems
in place now? Are you optimistic that we won’t see another delay when it comes
to these elections?

President Thabo Mbeki: No, we don’t believe that there would be any delay.
We watched and worked closely with the Congolese to prepare for the referendum
- very good registration, high numbers of people registered, which was very
good. High numbers of people participated. There were concerns, for instance,
about the eastern part of the Congo that because this is an area which has
remained unstable, that you might get people staying away. You had 75%,
75%-plus participation of the population in the referendum and the enthusiasm
of the population is quite clear.

No, we believe there shouldn’t be anything that would result in a delay with
regard to these elections. We continue to work with them, the Congolese, to
make sure that everything is in place.

Miranda Strydom: There’s one issue at home that seems not to want to go
away, it’s the whole question of the third term. The debate is coming back up.
It’s quite clear that the call is getting louder. Would the President be open
to stand for a third term as President of the Republic?

President Thabo Mbeki: No, no, no. We’ve addressed this thing before,
Miranda, and I’ve said this, that for a long time now the ANC has taken the
position that we don’t want to change the Constitution. And even when we got
more than two-thirds majority we said this, that we’re not going to use this
two-thirds majority fundamentally to alter the Constitution and that remains
our position. So I mean, by the end of 2009 I would have been in a senior
position in government for 15 years and I think that’s too long. After 15 years
I think one should really step aside in any case.

John Perlman: But you’re putting in your State of the Nation Address, as you
have done each year, policies that are going to take a long time to bear fruit.
What role do you see yourself playing in plucking that fruit beyond 2009?

President Thabo Mbeki: Well no. There’ll be a change in terms of the
government leadership in 2009, which is fine. And I think whoever takes over
leadership must be given space to do their own thing. I think it would be
incorrect for people there to be watching over their shoulder to see, you know,
these ones that were here yesterday, what are they saying. I think the capacity
will be there no doubt, to continue with these programs and perhaps even to
perform better.

John Perlman: Mr President, before Miranda and I thank you and say goodnight
to the viewers and listeners, I know you’d probably like to do the same and
greet the people who’ve been listening and watching.

President Thabo Mbeki: Yes, indeed. I must say that the spirit among our
people, the spirit of hope, of optimism, of confidence about the future is
very, very important, very good, very inspiring. But I think also it’s
important that the people themselves should see this development project as
their own. Not to see it and say, I wait for government to do this, but also to
say, what is it that I can do to join and participate in this process of
building a new South Africa. But certainly the spirit among the people is
extremely, extremely inspiring.

John Perlman: Mr President, once again, thank you. From all of us here at
the SABC, television and radio, these are important debates, we hope that you
continue them in your communities and in your homes. From the Union Buildings,
goodnight.

Miranda Strydom: Goodnight.

Issued by: The Presidency
5 February 2006

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