Panel: Minister of Transport, Sibusiso Ndebele; Minister of Water Affairs, Edna Molewa; Minister of Public Enterprises, Malusi Gigaba
Statement by Minister Sibusiso Ndebele
Questions and answers
Journalist: I wonder if you could just give us a breakdown on the R549 billion that Eskom is yet to spend and the 70 000 jobs that will be created this year the S'hamba SonkeProject, are you calculating that figure using the public works method which is that one person working for one day amounts to one job. And if not can you maybe just tell me the method that you are using to calculate that number. Thanks.
Malusi Gigaba: You will remember that we have announced a comprehensive programme a build-programme on Eskom which includes Kusile, Medupi, Inula so part of this budget is going to be directed at those programmes because we had indicated that we need to conclude those projects by 2017. There are a number of other programmes that are part of the Eskom projects which include the projects such as Camden and others that are also part of the projects that we are implementing to try and ensure the security of electricity supply. So this money will be broken down in terms of all of those programmes.
Minister Sibusiso Ndebele: The 70 000 jobs are real jobs that are sustainable you remember that the President spoke about the Zimbambele experiment that has been going on in KwaZulu-Natal since round about 1998 its sustainable and you can see that project you are maintaining a stretch of road, you own it and you've got responsibility over it as a group of womenor a corporative of young people and the roads will always be maintained. As you build new ones you always maintain the old ones. What has happened in the last few years is that the maintenance of our roads and I must say that we've got national roads generally you don't find pot holes in those roads. Then you've got provincial roads, district and the local roads and the deterioration in those roads are quite bad. That is why in the last budget we actually said that we want to ensure that all of us because its a core responsibility, ensure that money is not diverted for maintaining roads to some other things.
So if people are therefore employed in that and with this R6.4 billion that we now have which is over and above what we had when the budget was announced, it really allows us to enter into a new era of ensuring that our roads are maintained continuously even as we build new ones. We have build 40% or less newer ones but the concentration is to maintain our existing stocks and therefore those jobs are sustainable and if you use the Zimbambele project, those ladies have been working at it since 1997/98, they are one of the few groups that will go to a bank today and they've got more than R10 million in their name through their own savings so it has made them very important economic players with their own, so when they come to the bank they are not coming there to beg they own money so it is sustainable and it has been proven and that is why the President was then saying role it out to the rest of the country.
Journalist: Could you possibly give us an indication of the total number of permanent jobs that will be created by your particular infrastructure development cluster.
Journalist: Minister the Gautrain route that's between Johannesburg and Tshwane, how much can we expect a ticket to be? Can you just give us an estimation of the price to travel between Tshwane and Johannesburg on the Gautrain and then secondly it seems that you need about R468 billion for your maintenance backlog in the transport sector. Now where will this money come from and must customers or road users prepare themselves to carry some of the burden of this cost? Thank you.
Journalist: I want to add to that question also two part on transport if I may Minister. The first being the Gauteng Free-way Project and the tolling that is taking place in that province is clearly going to have an affect on the price of foods and general transport of goods and commodities in that region. Is the government satisfied that sufficient public participation has taken place in that process before it was decided on what charges were going to be made. Then just briefly the second part you talk about road engineers and superintendents to patrol the roads for pot holes. How many of these engineers and superintendents are currently employed and ready to begin work?
Minister Sibusiso Ndebele: Let me start with the Gautrain and the toll. They are linked you have the Gautrain launched first in June followed by the tolling so that what has come out presently the point that the people of Gauteng actually have got a choice a much better choice has not come out very well. People of Gauteng, right now the Gautrain has been going on trials and it is going to be launched permanently in June so at every hour at least 40 000 people would have travelled through that. Therefore you are not really forced to take your car and go through the back streets in order to reach Pretoria.
You get into the Gautrain it takes you 38 minutes in great comfort and therefore there is a very clear choice and those people have got a choice that the whole continent of Africa does not have. So that when you then go on a bus or a taxi through this Gauteng improvement scheme and you've got to pay the toll what are we saying as the Department of Transport is that if you are coming by bus or taxi we give you a 75% discount. So instead of paying 66c per kilometre you are paying 16c and that's a vast difference from 66c to 16c because you are on public transport. So that is a clearly a very clear attentive and in our own communications we have not really been very articulate on that score. So it therefore allows people this choice and discount and then of course while you got this cheap you have access to further discount of up to 45% and so forth so that it is not just like people of Gauteng are now made to pay this 66c and they have no other alternative it has just been imposed on them there is actually quite clear alternatives. The choice transport is public transport for passengers in the first place for goods that's why the freight people and all other stakeholders that is why this was announced quite clocking us during the State of the Nation it is actually going to be implemented in June but it is announced now. It allows for all this people to express themselves and to engage with all the stakeholders that have come forward and they said they wanted to meet us and we are going to meet all of them but we have got something on the table and if there are further suggestions we are amendable to those suggestions.
Lucky Montana: I am saying that the operator of the Gautrain, Bombela clearly indicated that they will announce the price in March this year and I think Minister we should respect that they because they have to take into account quite a number of things in the costing model for the ticket at this point. Thanks.
Minister Sibusiso Ndebele: And the concentrated number of jobs to be created by the infrastructure development cluster is around a 120 000 jobs in the medium term. So just on the pot holes and infrastructure maintenance it is 70 000 jobs.
Journalist: The 120 000 jobs are those permanent jobs?
Minister Sibusiso Ndebele: I have said that maintenance is forever if you don't maintain the investment goes up the wind. That is one of the faults that we have committed in terms of our road infrastructure once you don't maintain it goes through the wind so that whatever is spend comes to nothing. Therefore maintenance is going to be a very strict part of our way forward.
Journalist: The new Tolling System in Gauteng, which metros can look forward to that system being rolled out, which other provinces?
Journalist: Just a point of clarity, the funds that you announced for road maintenance. Is it going to go into a dedicated fund so that we can ensure that the fund goes for road maintenance or is it going to provinces and municipalities to do with as they please?
Journalist: When the Gautrain link between Tshwane and Johannesburg is opened in June how will it affect he business express between Tshwane and Johannesburg, the one that leaves at six in the morning? Will you shut it down or will you do other things because it will take all the passengers from that service.
Journalist: I am just wondering, new rolling stock in terms of Metrorail and PRASA You have admitted here that some of the rolling stock is over 54 years old which primarily is like a death trap. So when can we get new rolling stock, time frames of new rolling stock? I take the train everyday and I can tell you that it is terrible, so I would like to know when we can look forward to new rolling stock?
Lucky Montana: Minister I think the first question related to the business express I don't think that we will be closing the business express. I think as the Honourable Minister has stated correctly that we are giving people a lot of choices and I think that the pricing that the Gautrain itself will announce will have a major impact. But just to give an example, I think many people who use our business express train, they are paying R870 a month to buy a return ticket between Johannesburg and Pretoria and that trip takes an hour, they will tell you that on average they have been spending about R2100 a month. So its a big savings for many of the users, so good public transport will assist in putting back that money in the pockets of the households. I think we have also created a number of integration points between Metrorail and Gautrain. You would recall that when the system was designed in Hatfield, in Pretoria Station at the new station called the Rhodesfield just outside the Johannesburg International Airport as well as Park Station. That is where users for example you can have someone travelling from Soweto by Metrorail getting to Johannesburg and then jump into the Gautrain to go to Sandton and Rosebank.
So the issue of integration has been at the heart of Government's own planning of the entire system. So I think that you will have different levels and I think the market will respond. Other people will prefer the business express whether from price because they are going to the East of Johannesburg so they will still use Metrorail. Like if someone goes to Germiston clearly the Gautrain doesn't reach that connection so we still have, I think that the systems compliment each other, there will be a bit of competition. Finally Minister we are working between the Department of Transport, PRASA, National Treasury as well as the Department of Public Enterprises and DTI on a program for the replacement ofthe new rolling stock. We want to replace the current fleet with about 8600 new coaches and that will take place over an 17 year period and that program, the first delivery of those coaches are expected around 2014, 2015.
Minister Sibusiso Ndebele: This 6 point, this plus 6 billion is a dedicated fund. As soon as we got it we had an emergency meeting on the 8th of this month, two days before the State of the Nation. Each province I know for sure the Eastern Cape is one of them setting a special task team to do it and there is a special task team at national to ensure that the money is spend on the maintenance and a bit of it on new roads, for the maintenance of roads and therefore have very clear warm bodies that are now employed to do that. If you are spending 6.4 billion surely in 12 months that is quite a lot of people to employ. So that is going to happen. One question on the rolling stock.
Journalist(speaking off the mic)
Minister Sibusiso Ndebele: Gauteng if the hub, the centre of the economy of South Africa and Africa so most of the things have started there. But it will gradually be developing over many years to other centres, Cape Town, Durban, Port Elizabeth. But that is really in the outer years, it is not an immediate thing.
Journalist: So there is no specific plans to do it in 5 years or in the near future.
Minister Sibusiso Ndebele: It is the way to go but there is no specific that within 7 years we will now be in Cape Town, within 9 years we will be in Durban, no.
Journalist: If you look at the total cluster, what is your estimation on the skills shortage in this cluster. And also on funding in the Medium Term the 846 billion how much more funding would one have to get from other investors? Can you just give us an indication you know these countries that were named possible funding partners like France and South Korea for transport. What are the sort of offers that they are putting on the table because you said we will have to see about the cost models and repayments and things like that. Can you give us one or two concrete examples of what they are offering and what you are thinking about that at the moment?
Journalist: Just a point of clarity to the Minister of Transport. You said that you have a consolidated figure of 120 000 jobs that will be created but 70 000 of those are going to be kind of permanent jobs because the road maintenance will be there continuously. Does it mean therefore that the balance of the 120 000 out of the 70 000 will not be sustainable jobs? I am talking about the entire infrastructure.
Jimmy Manyi: Just a correction, the Minister said the project is permanent.
Deputy Minister Malusi Gigaba: The issue of skills shortage. We are working within a frame work of the New Growth Path which has identified how many skills are required in terms of engineers, artisans and all others. So what we are doing, each one of our entities, the State Owned Enterprises that belong within the cluster have been asked to identify the numbers of skills that they are going to develop during the course of this year leading up to 2020. Having done that we asked them to abscale those figures so that we can do more than they had anticipated. We are in the process of discussions with the Department of Higher Education and Training with regards to funding through the SETA Funds and those institutions so that they can reinforce the resources that are available within the SOE's to increase the skills that we have. When you look at institutions such as your Transnet, you Eskom have got quite handsome figures that they are working on and I think in the process of doing that we will then consolidate the total figures of skills that we are going to develop. But the numbers in terms of engineers, artisans interns are looking pretty good at the moment I think we will be able to make a very god contribution in towards skills development in the area.
Minister Sibusiso Ndebele: Perhaps if one can remark that, the Gautrain in its conception was empathetically said not to be a stand alone project. The question thatwe are asking as a country as Government is where to after we have spent this. By June this year the Gautrain will be complete meaning that we would have paid just over R25 billion, where to after that. Can someone who rides the Gautrain for 12 minutes to Sandton is satisfied with getting into a train for 12 hours to Durban, wont you have set a particular standard that to be in a train is to be fast. Therefore will that same person be satisfied by moving from Johannesburg to Pretoria in just over 30 minutes and be satisfied with a train from Johannesburg to Cape town in 18 hours. The standards that we have set for ourselves point to new direction that the world travels by train and it travels fast.
Therefore we have said that let us use this period January to July for proposals to say what is actually possible, what van the economy of South Africa absorb, what can come from private funding, local or foreign and so forth. That is where this French and the Canadians are already having their foot inside because they were responsible for the Gautrain, then the Chinese, then the Japanese, then the Germans and all of them. I am making proposals, some of them are saying we can do this thing completely from start to finish and then we just give a whistle to say that the train starts, but what does it cost the fiscas. What will it cost, they do have extra money now but its borrowing. What will it cost us in 20/30 and so forth. It is this that we really want, a very scientific approach to the thing, the scientific approach starts by saying you cant go with this old 18 hours to Cape Town Johannesburg, you cant go that way and you cant go 12 hours, you must move faster. You can increase even the speed of the present train now from 12 hours to 7 to 6 and so forth without a new one, how do we do. So this is the time for fees-ability to say what are the new things that are possible and then we actually have to decide properly we actually know what are the choices, what are available out there.
Minister Edna Molewa: No not on transport. There is a bit much of transport today. There was a question that was asked about the funding partners. I think Minister Ndebele will come in regarding transport. I think Minister Gigaba has already spoken about and in the text you have written there funding sources being World Bank for the programs of electricity. But from water side it will be interesting for you to know that we have an institution called TCTA which is an institution that raises funds of budgets to help us actually create water infrastructure. They raise such funding from different sources, World Bank, other countries where you have donors or even banks like in France and those other European countries, very low interest obviously. As we speak there are programs and projects that we have raised funds for, some three dams in Water Affairs for purposes of constructing three more dams over and above the ones we have on the program here today.
We also have a memorandum of understanding with Development Bank of Southern Africa (DBSA) and ourselves Finance for purposes of ensuring that we construct infrastructure within the second component of Water Affairs. We have two areas, its water services as a resource and production facility high level projects. Within the water services area that is where you have operations by municipalities, that is where you have infrastructure very less funded that is why you have leaking taps, leaking infrastructure, no bulk infrastructure of connecting water to houses and so on. So that entire water services area which is constitutionally within the functionality of the local municipality is very less funded and that is the area which we are now going to be funding through the DBSA arrangement between ourselves, Finance and DBSA. So that we don't build dams and later on we have dams that are full of water and no water going to people which is currently the situation. We need to get the water to people by creating dams next to, where the residences are built as well as sanitation and support in that regard, that is what we would be doing in terms of funding. Those are some of the sources.
Journalist: My question is to Minister Molewa, you have now opened up about water. I just want to know you ave now mentioned some of the funding that will come towards infrastructure for functions that reside in terms of services residing with municipalities. Now last year we have a dismal Green Drop Report, I want to know whether any of these funding is directed towards getting us better, cleaner water which would imply that we need staff and skills like engineers. Is there a time frame attached to it liked to the money that you have just mentioned?
Journalist: Can the Minister of Water just give us an update on the pump that is supposed to be bought to pump out the asset mine water. Five months ago the previous Minister said that government had only 17 months left and that the problem was that Government needed R280 million for the pump but there was only R14 million in the budget. So just an update please.
Journalist: Minister you mentioned here that rad engineers and superintendents will be deployed all over the road network. Will these people come from government, will they come from the private sector, do we actually have enough engineers and artisans and superintendents to cover how many thousands of kilometres of provincial and district roads to see whether they need maintenance. And secondly will this S'hamba Sonke Project will it start as from the first of April this year?
Journalist: To the Minister of Trains again. Minister looking at the high speed rail and the Gautrain which was the first big project but now you refer to the Chinese and the Japanese and the Canadians as well. Hasn't enough skills been transferred so we can do it locally? Again going oversees asking the Chinese, the French or whoever to build it, I mean it will cost a lot of money. Has enough skills not been transferred during the Gautrain project to enable us to do it ourselves?
Minister Edna Molewa: The pump that is required to help us deal with the asset mine drainage is indeed part of all other resources that are required for us to address this problem countrywide. For the first area of work that we need to do yes money is ow available, we will be going to Cabinet the day after tomorrow and if Cabinet agrees with the proposals which is being put. We will definitely begin doing work in this area and we will be able to disclose al the details and the program that will follow from that discussion after having discussions at Cabinet level. But yes money is available, this money is available, by the way let me also qualify this that we are going to use the Water Act. Section 19 and 24 of the Water Act that says we will have to follow those who are responsible who have been operating in this areafor purposes of ensuring that we retrieve whatever money we can still retrieve.
As you know our laws requires that the polluter pays principle but also with the new measures that the Minister of Finance have put in place including the taxing of carbon, the taxing of environmental tax and so on, that is in the process of being finalised. So its not going to be money that we leave because if we do that as Government the problem will go on and on and we will have to dig deeper into government's coffers for money which we have to use in ensuring that we actually give our people clean water. The infrastructure that I am talking about is indeed very critical within the water services as I said. This is an infrastructure that will bring us, certainly that indeed there will not be leakages of sewer in the system, in rivers and so on. I must also say that the work is quite enormous, we require billions and billions of money to do that. We will be begin in the 3 Provinces that the President spoke about in particular Limpopo, we have been there this past week talking to them.
This is actually intended to address the whole question of clean water and definitely the Green Drop issue will be covered in that area, ensuring that we have clean water. So it is work that is not necessarily within the Department of Water Affairs as I said but we don't believe that we should say this is the work of Municipalities and the Department of Water Affairs. In the spirit of Governance and Corporative Governance our Chair earlier on said that we will endeavour at all times to integrate our work as much as we can so that we cover backlog on infrastructure because it doesn't help if the Department of Water Affairs build many dams without linkages to where the people are to get those pipes and bulks storage for the water and ensuring that there is no leakage in the system whether its sanitation or whatever and our water remains clean. Certainly with our function environmental management we will ensure that water pollution is at the helm of the work that we do so that there isn't any sort of pollution. Wherever it means we actually curb it going forward, infrastructure wise and policing that is what I am tying to get at.
Minister Sibusiso Ndebele: Thank you very much Ms Molewa, in our earlier lives we were Premiers and presided over what was either the Department of Transport or Department of Transport and Public Works. It is a Department that houses a lot of engineers and technicians. The President spoke about when he was speaking about education he spoke of three t's, teachers will teach, their will be textbooks and they will be on time. The question that we ask from our side is what does, in our departments we do have a lot of engineers and technical people, Public Enterprises, Transport and Water. What does an engineer do, you have your roads engineer in each Department of Transport or Transport and Public Works. What does regional engineer do, why do you call him a regional engineer? From the Western Cape to Limpopo we need those regional engineers and roads superintendents to know the roads they are responsible for.
If you talk about national roads you are talking about just under 17 000, 16500km of national roads. If you are a Province we are talking about much more. There is a process in terms of the Act, the process is that you declare a road. A road must have a Governmental authority overrate. It is either a national road, or a district or provincial road. Once it is declared someone is responsible for it and to be responsible means that you know what is going on there. So these regional engineers therefore as a matter of cause the once that I know do it quite diligently, road traffic inspectorate. You are going to inspect this stretch whether we are trapping camera or whatever it is. But in the morning before you start you just go through the rad and see because there are three elements, engineering, enforcement, education. So you look at the engineering part overnight was there no flood that came around and therefore you inspect that. So there are engineers and technicians, not enough of them but enough for us to make a huge difference by having a very systematic work schedule that we need each MEC to know each head of Department of Transport in the Provinces, MMC in charge of roads in Johannesburg to know what the conditions of roads are and that is capable of being known and that is what it is.
Through this session today we are saying we are going to do that as a matter of cause and vigorously and we also want our people out there to say but I passed through a terrible pothole or donger can someone fix it. We hope to arrive at a situation where we say like we say in most of the urban centres within 24hrs this shall have been done. We want to roll that out in the rural areas as well to say if there is this pothole how long does it take to do and this money that we are talking about actually then meets that demand.
Journalist: (speaking off the mic)
Minister Sibusiso Ndebele: If we are preparing for the World Cup and you want to build the stadiums that we built it doesn't matter how much committed we might be to Black Economic Empowerment the fact of the matter is that you are really talking about more or less 5 major construction companies that will do the stadium in Johannesburg or your FNB or what is it called, Soccer City or Green Point or Moses Mabidha. You really are talking about those and those you will find also surprisingly now if you find Murray& Roberts you go to Chennai there is Murray & Roberts, if you go to Dubai there they are because they have accumulated these skills that they have developed. These are our skills, its part of a national treasure of South Africa and therefore use that.
But you also say there must be joint ventures, that we don't compromise on we are very clear on those joint ventures so that gradually you start having half a million rands jibs to 5 million to 10 million. Now the last time in Kwazulu-Natal we had more than R300 million jobs being handled mostly by what was then what had been emerging contractors and its a concrete solid road and so forth. So there s skills transfer but for high-tech like your high speed, I am waiting to see, I saw that President Obama was saying the California State was going to go it alone and have a high speed, then President Obama no the United States is going to join the rest of the world and also have high speed as well. They are bound to go to Japan, they are bound to go to France. They are bound to go to those people who have done it before because you cant gamble with this sort of money and capital is international it has been international from Carl Mark's time, Labour as well. So we are one world and we share, you cant start an experiment but in that process you also have got local procurement and your local technicians.
Journalist: If I can go back to the trains, I think PRASA said they want to introduce 8 600 new trains by 2014? Is South Africa going to purchase these trains or are they going to lease it? If they are leasing it who will they be leasing it from and can you put a price tag on that please.
Journalist: On the trains again I remember the Minister once told us about a feasibility study being done for a possible high link railing between Durban and Johannesburg. Where is that process and what is happening with that. On the Gautrain, are there figures of how many people were transported between OR Tambo and Sandton since its inception and how much has been generated through ticket sales. Thanks.
Journalist: On my earlier questions about the R846 billion. Do we need double this amount what do we need from state side, we are not sure yet which of the more private investors, Bombela type investments we will still see. Do we need double this amount?
Journalist: I have a two part question on the electricity situation you talk about 400 megawatts is expected to be added to the grid by Independent Power Producers. Can you give us an indication of what percentage of the requirement or the need on government's side does this 400 megawatts constitute? I mean is this significant or not. The other question you talk about a 42 days average for the coal stockpiles that is the target, what is the current figure.
Journalist: Minister Molewa the acid mine water you mentioned that the Water Act will be used to retrieve the costs to rectify the situation. Does this mean, maybe I don't understand you correct. Does this mean that you will try to retrieve this money needed from the mining houses the people who mined there? If you just explain please.
Lucky Montana: Thanks Minister I didn't realise trains are getting so popular, I think it is good business for us. Minister we are talk about 8 600 new coaches for commuter rail which means Metrorail services and just over 2 000 coaches for long distance. I spoke about 2014/15 that is because the lead times for new trains takes about between two and three years so we have started hard work already as Government on this particular matter. When we place the order we are only going to get this trains in 2014/15 it is not because we are going to start at that time we are going to start now. The cost of this we are estimating at around a single coach we talk about in the order between R11 and R12 million. It means we need about R80 billion to finance this programme over the 18 year period which means practically Minister that we need 600 new trains coming into our system a year over that period of time.
Finally let me say from the acquisition strategy that we are looking at we are basically buying technology, I think the question was that what lessons have we learned and I think the technology we don't own in the country so they belong to the original equipment manufacturers like Bombardier , Siemens, the Chinese, Japanese and all of those people. The balance that you find is that we will buy that technology and we will then have the plants and the factories being located here that is why this programme will create between 15 000 and 20 000 jobs.
I think currently there is a detailed feasibility that is being done to determine all of those numbers. So the technology we will get it outside but the actual construction, we accept that the first three years we may have to import those because we may not have adequate capacity so the first 1000 of those coaches may come into the country from outside but the rest, we don't have to much as the minister said we are modernising most of the stuff that we have are no longer being manufacture both on the rolling stock as well as on the signal inside which affects the reliability of the current fleet as things stands and finally let me say the Minister spoke about 18 hours and 12 hours for the thing but the truth is if you analyse the whole world the future of long distance lies in high speed trains no longer in a train that is moving just faster than a donkey. I think that is what basically the system has been designed for.
Minister Sibusiso Ndebele: We talked about the feasibility the fact is precisely what Mr Montana has said that you've got your particular technology whose time expires and the technology that we have on our rail, that technology is no longer anywhere and therefore you have to modernise. If you then modernise there are various options part of it has been demonstrated by the Gautrain. Now if you extend the Gautrain to Polokwane, Metalanguage and so forth from Hatfield after June, what is there so that there needs to be this feasibility and we said let's use January of this year to July to have views and scientific studies and all those things that what is possible. Someone says this thing is very good for South Africa we move it to Durban, Johannesburg in four hours or so it is very good. Someone says it is astronomical it is not affordable, someone says a different things but let's subject all those things to scientific study so that by July we actually have a clear idea where we should we go. The fact being that the present stock is not sustainable you can repair it and refurbish it and so forth up to so much after that what do you then do. After refurbishing you are still taking 12 hours and 18 hours, is that it? Therefore people then flock on the road and you've got this bumper to bumper and you have the accidents that we have and one incident like ten more people died in a taxi accident. So how long does it go, you need to free the road for really fewer cars the mass mover becomes the train but make the train attractive, affordable and safe.
Minister Edna Molewa: Just quickly on the AMD again. There are two areas now identified in two provinces where AMD is existing that is in Gauteng and in Mpumalanga. The problem in Gauteng is actually quite bad to say the least now as we look at it, the former Minister indicated the time that we are left with to deal with this problem. We believe that it is necessary and Government does understand the kind of predicament that we are in. I must really say this that if in case there may have been people who believed that we are just buying time you should know that we take this problem very serious and indeed we are going to do something about it. However there are two areas of work that we need to look at the first area is where the AMD in Gauteng is currently a problem and that is the area of Krugersdorp of course we will have decanting towards Boksburg sometime late next year in terms of the report of the experts that we have.
In Krugersdorp we are aware that the mines that use to operate there are no longer there. A few of them have closed down and this is the reason why we have this decanting happening the rising of water especially exacerbated by the recent rains. With those mines no longer operating, government has got to address this problem there are a few mines that are left operating you can't necessary transfer that problem over to them. What do we then do? We are going to move into dealing with this problem all things being equal with the money that we have but we can't say that with the situation that is prevalent in Mpumalanga for instance where the operators are currently treating AMD on their own that you would then treat those differently because they are treating AMD and there are those who are not treating AMD.
There are those who have left the mines who may actually need to be followed. We are not saying that we will find them but we need to put some mechanism in place to ensure that those who have been operating at least we take care if it is possible for them to come on board with regard to funding so be it. So this is Section 19 a follow up that we are doing to hold on to those who have been operating responsible. Going forward with the second aspect is really just to investigate what measures can be put in place to ensure that we don't experience this kind of a problem rising frommines into the future so that we address pro actively what may have to be done to ensure we don't have AMD and this kind of decanting that we have. It may be a kind of a levy an environmental tax and this is the area that I have said earlier on together with the Department of Finance we are investigating what measures and what mechanism can actually be introduced going forward. The current one this is how we are addressing it, I am not sure if this is clear enough. Thanks.
Minister Sibusiso Ndebele: The first question I will request you to repeat it and I will answer the second question on the shortfall.The current shortfall is 1 000 megawatts that we are working against. The first question if you may kindly repeat it.
Journalist: Speaking off the microphone.
Minister Sibusiso Ndebele: It is 39.8. Thank you.
