Chairperson: Bongiwe Gambu
Panel members:
Minister of Safety and Security: Nathi Mthethwa (Chairperson of Cluster)
Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development: Enver Surty
Minister of Intelligence: Siyabonga Cwele
Deputy Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development: Johnny de Lange
Venue: Room 153, Union Buildings, Pretoria (with video-link to Cape Town)
Statement read by Safety and Security Minister, Nathi Mthethwa
This report represents the progress made by the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security (JCPS) Cluster, as part of the regular report-back on the work done by the various clusters in pursuance of the Apex Priorities that were identified at the beginning of this year. One of the objectives of the Cluster is to ensure a seamless, comprehensive and integrated approach.
The report will cover the following broad categories:
* Review of the Criminal Justice System
* serious and violent crime
* detention and rehabilitation of offenders
* issues relating to migration; and
* the protection of major events.
Review of the Criminal Justice System
With regard to the Review of the Criminal Justice System (CJS), various task teams are co-ordinating activities relating to the seven-point action plan. The seven-point plan includes aspects such as the development of protocols between departments dealing with court processes and bail, revisiting the cases of awaiting trial detainees that were granted bail but are still in detention because they cannot afford the bail. The plan also involves drafting various pieces of legislation to improve the functioning of the CJS, such as, dealing more effectively with DNA, fingerprints and biometric data.
The case reduction backlog project has been integrated into the Review of the Criminal Justice System process. This entails the usage of courts designated for specific purposes as way intervening in special cases such as xenophobia matters.
Redesignation of Branch Courts
A key initiative seeks to increase the proximity of justice services to communities, particularly those living in rural and township areas. At the same time it will address some of the historical inequalities around the distribution of justice services.
The process involves re-designating Branch Courts - part of the old, apartheid drawn jurisdictional areas which denied access to justice to millions of people. The re-designation will ensure that they become fully-fledged courts that will not deal with criminal cases only, but with other civil matters as well.
The Notice for the re-designation of 20 of the 90 Branch Courts as proper main courts to provide a full range of court-related services will be published in the Gazette in November 2008. This will address the hardships endured by the communities who receive limited services from Branch Courts and have to commute to the towns and cities to access services such as maintenance, domestic violence, children enquires and deceased estates.
The areas which will have fully fledged courts include Mamelodi, Alexandra in Gauteng, Motherwell in Eastern Cape, Khayelitsha in Western Cape and Ntuzuma in KwaZulu Natal. The re-designation of the Branch Court will be followed by the e-alignment of magisterial districts with municipal and provincial boundaries to increase access to justice.
Mainstreaming the traditional justice system to enhance access to justice
This year the Traditional Courts Bill, which seeks to mainstream the traditional justice system, was introduced in Parliament. The envisaged legislation provides for the revival of Traditional Courts, enabling less serious criminal cases and civil disputes to be diverted from the already overburdened mainstream courts. Issues such as petty offences and cases that require a restorative justice approach will be dealt with speedily by Traditional Leaders who would have undergone specialised training on mediation and dispute resolution.
Piloting the use of indigenous languages
It is important that the Department ensure the provision of equal access to justice for all South Africans, with particular focus on the poor and vulnerable.
In line with this, the Department is piloting an initiative that promotes the use of indigenous languages in courts. The pilot will involve selected magisterial courts in all 9 provinces, where the dominant language of that province will be utilised in the courts, which have traditionally utilised English and Afrikaans, making the court processes more accessible and understandable to ordinary citizens.
Independence of the judiciary
The Cluster upholds the independence of the judiciary and recognises the supremacy of the Constitution and the rule of law in all matters. A key priority is the transformation of the judiciary with regard to gender and race representation, but with the proviso that appointments are made to the Bench on the basis of competence and professional skills.
Crime reduction
The Cluster’s Crime Reduction Project continues to be dictated to by the 7-10% annual target that was set by the government in 2004.
For instance, we can cite the following separate incidents that were achieved in the crack down in 419 Scams.
A Japanese national was lured into South Africa by a group of Nigerians with a false investment promise. The South African Police Service (SAPS), acting on intelligence, rescued the man unharmed from a house in Rosettenville, Johannesburg. Two suspects were arrested and appeared in the Kempton Park Magistrate’s Court on charges of kidnapping.
In another incident seven suspects were arrested for kidnapping in an attempt to extort money from a man’s family by demanding a ransom of 5 million US dollars.
It is believed that this syndicate can be linked to at least four other similar cases. The SAPS believes that they have cracked the syndicate and closed down their headquarters.
Serious and violent crime
The Cluster continues in its attempt to put more resources to the Moral Regeneration Campaign to deal with social crime.
The SAPS has made significant progress in the investigation and prevention of ATM bombings. The approach in dealing with this crime enables the SAPS to deal with any deviation of the modus operandi of the perpetrators. A number of suspects have been arrested.
Some of the successes include:
The arrest of five suspects in Soweto, Johannesburg before they could blow up an ATM and an AK 47 rifle, shotgun and a pistol were recovered. In another incident, five suspects including two women were arrested in KwaZulu-Natal, a rifle and rounds of ammunition were recovered. In the North West, four suspects were arrested. Explosives and cash were recovered including an AK 47 rifle, shotgun and three pistols.
A total of 344 suspects were arrested by the SAPS Organised Crime Unit in the period from July to September 2008, with 43 suspects arrested for Cash-in-transit robberies and 17 suspects for ATM bombings.
Partnerships in the fight against crime
The willingness of communities towards the fight against crime plays a critical role in crime reduction.
The Cluster has held public awareness campaigns of the causes and implications of crime; including the purchase of stolen property is a key factor in crime prevention. This programme involved the development of a focused, needs based public education programme, which aims to alter public attitudes and responses to crime and to activities which support crime. It is also vital in forging a national vision around crime prevention.
The role of members of the public in assisting the departments through existing structures such as Community Police Forums (CPFs), reservists as well as Business Against Crime initiatives cannot be under estimated. The Crime Line project with the media has proven to be extremely successful. To date, a total of 506 suspects have been arrested and stolen property, drugs and counterfeit goods worth a total value of R20.4 million were recovered. All the print and electronic media are encouraged to contribute in the fight against crime.
Positive messages reinforcing the Anti-Crime Campaign are being disseminated by partners in the Movement for Good Initiative to the public. This project is being led by the International Marketing Council.
Operation Festive Season
With the festive season approaching, government has had extensive consultations with the private security industry to partner in the fight against crime.
The main focus was ensuring compliance with regulations.
An Operation Festive Season plan has been completed. It will ensure effective crime prevention before, during and after the festive season. The aim will be to ensure safety to our local and foreign tourists. Special attention will be given to the following;
* aggravated armed robberies, including house robberies
* firearms, liquor and offences relating to property
* matters relating to border security
* gender-based violence
* the enforcement of by-laws.
The Cluster is planning to address the known impact of the festive season on the increase of children in conflict with the law. Operation Festive Season will deal with the effects of closed schools and children who are left alone at home during school holidays. Communities should play a proactive role in protecting children as potential victims or perpetrators of crime.
Cash-in-transit robberies which had shown a decrease, usually peak during this season. In order to deal with this phenomenon more resources will be channelled towards the implementation of the plan.
Safety on public transport
Two railway contact points - Bellville, Western Cape and Park Station, Johannesburg - have been officially launched. Twenty-four (24) police contact points are under construction. More than 2 144 police members have been deployed in the railway environment to ensure safety on trains.
Victim empowerment programmes
The implementation the Victims Charter and empowerment programmes is one of the Cluster priorities with on emphasis on crimes against women and children.
Violence against women and children will be confronted by all sectors of the society, including government and other formations. An interdepartmental plan for the 16 days of Activism against violence against women and children has been completed. The programme starts on 25 November 2008.
Reduction of remand detainees
The Cluster continues to improve interventions aimed at improving case flows and reducing numbers of Remand Detainees. At the end of August 2008, 47 848 remand detainees were incarcerated in Correctional Centres nationally. Of this number 8 677 were detained for three months or more, showing a marginal but important decline of less than a percentage point, less by 85 detainees compared to July 2008.
The JCPS Cluster continues to promote the placement of those posing little or no danger to society under correctional supervision in line with relevant legislation. In August 2008, 6 549 offenders were placed under correctional supervision and on parole. One of the major challenges adversely affecting these efforts is lack of family and community support for qualifying offenders some of whom have no permanent address to help monitor their adherence to the parole conditions.
Enhancing rehabilitation of offenders and help reduce recidivism (repeat offenders)
Efforts to ensure productive engagement of offenders through various development and care programmes continue to increase with good spin-offs even in terms of reducing offender cost of incarceration to the fiscus.
Directorate of Special Operations (DSO) and SAPS amalgamation
After an elaborate process of consultation by Parliamentary Committees with civil society, SAPS and the DSO, the National Assembly has passed legislation to establish the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigations (DPCI).
In terms of the new legislation selected SAPS and DSO members incorporated into the DPCI will be augmented by seconded personnel with the required expertise and skills from other government bodies such as the South African Revenue Service, Financial Intelligence Centre and National Intelligence Agency. The unit will be an additional capacity in the fight against crime.
Major events
The security preparations and resourcing of the SAPS for the FIFA Confederations Cup in 2009 as well as the 2010 Soccer World Cup are well in advance. Various simulation exercises were held in different provinces. This has been an excellent training opportunity for preparations for the 2010 FIFA Soccer World Cup. It involves simulated scenarios and other aspects of (our) contingency plans to deal with any form of airborne and land borne threats. The next simulation exercise will be held in Gauteng during January 2009. As part of the preparations the SAPS has recently acquired two R44 Raven 11 helicopters with a further four to be delivered later this year. These helicopters will boost our air-support capabilities.
Addendum
Ladies and gentlemen, to that extent I would like to quickly deal with a matter which is in the news currently as an addendum to this briefing. The Acting Public Service and Administration Minister, Mr (Sicelo) Shiceka, in Correctional Services and Sport and Recreation, writes: “I have observed concerns of various players about the recent cross-transfers of heads of department in correctional services as well sport and recreation.
“As Acting Minister of Public Service and Administration I wish to state categorically that the transfers have been done in the best interest of the whole government and the country. I made the decision believing that the skills of both heads of department will enhance delivery in their respective new portfolios.
“I have used the powers vested in me as acting minister of public services and administration to facilitate the transfer of these heads of departments. We trust that the skills of former National Commissioner of Correctional Services, Mr Vernie Petersen, can help accelerate the country’s preparation for hosting of 2010 Soccer World Cup, which we want to be the biggest and most successful sports spectacle in this country.
“While on the other side we believe the former director general of Sport and Recreation, Miss Xolisa Sibeko, can best expedite the delivery of offender rehabilitation programs, and the transformation of correctional services.
‘I must also state that the transfers are done in terms of the legislative and policy prescript of government and are a normal practise in South Africa, and in any country. Both heads of department have been properly consulted on the matter and have consented to the arrangement.
“I therefore call on all affected parties to understand and allow the two heads of department to settle and deliver on their new contractual obligations. Government is committed to ensure accelerated service delivery, and good governance in a business unusual manner. Let me take the opportunity as well to congratulate two heads of department for their assumption of the new and bigger responsibilities in various respects on the 27th of October 2008. I trust they will seize the opportunity and the trust demonstrated by government in their capabilities."
Questions and answers
Journalist: Good morning Minister. I’ve got a couple of questions. The first is regarding the transfer of Vernie Petersen to sport. You said that the former Director-General (DG) of Sport would be the best to expedite the transformation of Correctional Services. So I mean can you explain why she is better positioned to work in Correctional Services than Petersen? Is there some inadequacy that he was displaying that led you to decide that the former DG of Sport would be better? And then just a second question, can I get an update on the 11 000 awaiting trial detainees (ATDs) who have been granted bail but can’t afford it? In the last briefing the Deputy Justice Minister, Johnny de Lange, said that this group of people should be released, they shouldn’t still be in prison. So are they still in prison? If they are, when are they due to be released? Thanks.
Journalist: Could you bring us to speed please on the situation regarding parole for Mr Clive Derby-Lewis, and whether or not the views of the Hani family are going to hold sway?
Deputy Minister De Lange: It’s quite correct about the 11 000 detainees. We found them in the prisons. As we’ve said to you we are using the months of October and November, starting with a process of trying to take these persons back to the courts and then getting them released. I don’t have the details with me now exactly how far we are with the process but I could update that at any time if you need the information. It is obviously a difficult process, people are spread all over the country, they have to be taken to different courts, and we have to prepare papers and all those things. But to assure you that the process is ahead, it’s part of our whole audit of the ATDs, and these are our first priorities. The persons with bail are to be released first. Once we’ve finished with them we’ll then move onto those that will stay in prison and how we then expedite and get their cases forward. So I’m happy to tell you that that process is proceeding well and I will give you further details which you can get through Mr (Zolili) Nqayi at any stage when we have that updated report, thank you.
Minister Cwele: Well, thank you very much. The issue of Clive Derby-Lewis, this is really before the courts, the courts would have due regard to the circumstances and make a decision. So we certainly don’t want to interfere with the due process that is taking place, and I certainly do not wish to anticipate what the outcome would be. With regard to the first question obviously, you know, I certainly don’t have all the information before me but I would imagine that there has been a consultative process between the two ministers concerned, they carefully considered the strengths and weaknesses of each one of the members concerned, and as a result of this mutual consultation a decision was taken would… certainly would serve the best interests of the respective institutions. I’m sorry, if I had more information I would be able to provide that to you. Thank you very much.
Journalist: With regard to the swapping of the two DGs, it is just… I don’t know whether it’s convenience to put it like it’s convenience, because it is at the very same time that Commissioner Petersen was seen as being [unclear] in corruption in the department, and even reporting his own minister to the ethics committee for not declaring a gift of a car. How does this help the perception out there of like the minister is being covered, government is shielding the minister from a corruption investigation by swapping the DG?
Minister Cwele: I think the explanation has been quite adequate, that this transfer is not by any chance covering any investigation. This [unclear] of Parliament will continue with its work. The transfer is purely on the interest of service delivery and is being done in consultation between the two ministers and the relevant DGs. So the suggestion that it is a cover-up for any corruption is not really founded because those who are responsible for that type of investigation may continue with such an investigation, thank you.
Minister Surty: Just to give you the assurance that we certainly would not interfere in any process with regard to any investigation, whether it involves a minister or otherwise. I think the joint ethics committee has a particular task at hand, and they should carry out that task without any interference, that assurance we could give to the public and to the media.
Journalist: A question for Minister Mthethwa. Minister, you said that SAPS has made significant progress in the investigation and prevention of ATM bombings. Now we are seeing this type of crime spreading to our neighbouring countries. Will the SAPS assist Southern African Development Community (SADC) countries to clamp down on this type of crime?
Journalist: This question goes to Minister Mthethwa. There has been a lot of misunderstanding regarding what the department is doing with the private security industry. Whether private security guards are going to be getting arresting powers or what kind of powers… if the Minister can just explain that part, what kind of consultation and what kind of help will the private security industry provide to the SAPS?
Minister Mthethwa: Well, thanks. On the question of ATMs, whilst we see that there has been breakthrough to a certain degree, but we’ll all agree that even within the borders of South Africa you still see this persistent act of criminality. We will do everything in our power to ensure that we strengthen our own units concerned with this, to stamp it out in South Africa first and foremost and well as giving assistance to our neighbouring countries. Just on Friday we had a bi-national on security with Botswana, and one of the things we were talking about is the… to expatriate some of the criminals which may have been the residents or citizens of that country and so on. So we are working with our SADC neighbours.
On private security, firstly I want to say that it’s unfortunate that this matter was reported the way it did. Actually it’s one of our resolves to work with anybody to partner against crime, and it must be looked along those lines. What that means in practice is that the private security companies, if you take an example of Honeydew for instance, there’s a memorandum of understanding between SAPS and private security companies to partner against crime. Now that doesn’t take the work of the police, the police’s job is to police and they will continue to do that. But where possible partnership would be done in practice in areas where you would know that we have so much in terms of resources within SAPS and you have private security companies, and particularly in residential areas where there are these robberies, housebreaking and so on, we would want to have that cooperation so that police are able to effectively do their work. In other words this is an extended arm of the police, but the police are central. In return we’ll do things like training some of the private companies, in ensuring that they report these matters and the usage of radio and so on.
I think rather than reporting this as, you know, in a ridiculing manner that, you know, we are pressing panic buttons, in fact we won’t be ridiculed by that. We actually have that, would admit that because South Africa is in a panic mood on the issues of crime. So we are doing everything possible, we’ll partner with everybody. Not only the private security companies, anyone who’ll come on board and want to assist government and SAPS to deal with crime and reduce crime levels in South Africa, we’ll do that, we’ll happily do that. Thank you very much.
Journalist: Minister Mthethwa, you say here that government still remains committed to the 7 to 10% crime reduction annually. During the 15 year review that was recently released by government, it was said that, you know, there is concerns about the fact that government hasn’t been able to achieve those targets, especially over the last few years. Do you… is it also a concern to you? Do you feel that you need to step up the current programmes? Maybe set out new initiatives to achieve that particular target? And what are the areas that you feel that you need to focus on in terms of reducing crime? I know that during the review they said especially violent crime and aggravated crime that is particular of concern.
Minister Mthethwa: Well, thanks. On the issue of the targets, 7 to 10%, firstly I asked why 7 to 10%. And comparing with other countries internationally I was told that in other countries you put these targets to 1%, at most 2%. But I think it’s appropriate in South Africa because of the nature of the crime in the country. Of course we would be as a cluster concerned with us not reaching the target we put for ourselves, and at the same time do acknowledge that quite some ground has been covered, about 4.5% has been achieved to that effect, and therefore I think that whilst we have not achieved the target, but we may be on the right track to ensure that. As you see, mostly it’s contact violent crime in South Africa, which is a major concern. It doesn’t mean that other types of crime are not a major concern, but this distinguishes South Africa to any other country internationally. And the partnership with communities and the point we just made with private security and so on is one such area we think we need to emphasise. The other area which we thought we needed to pay attention to is the area of strengthening the arm of our crime intelligence unit, as well as generally detectives. If you look at proposals on the review of criminal justice system you would see that we have been concerned with the process of prevention, particularly detective unit at SAPS and so on, so we want to strengthen those. We also want to give support to those special task force teams which crack down particularly on violent crime robbery like cash-in-transit and ATM bombings just to give them more way of dealing with this area. And we think if we follow some of those aspects we’d be able to even reach the target we have set ourselves, thank you.
Journalist: I just have a question on the DSO and SAPS amalgamation. What sort of numbers are we talking about of staff in the new DPCI? And do you have any indication about how many members of the DSO have indicated they will actually quit and leave altogether?
Journalist: Is the new partnership with private security just for the suburbs, or will residents of informal settlements who suffer a lot of house robberies and complain of slow response time from the police also benefit from this?
Journalist: Minister Mthethwa, the other day on the radio a police spokesman said that the police would crack down on hate speech at political rallies. Could you tell us if any arrests have been made from the people who said kill Lekota? And what other measures will you take to ensure that political violence doesn’t happen?
Minister Surty: Well, I’ll deal with the issue of the DPCI, the new directorate. We’ve already had a conversation, my colleague and I, as you might well be aware we are responsible for the development of a mechanism that is appropriate. The unit would be obviously located within the Department of Safety and Security and therefore the decisions with regards to the numbers would have to be made by the Minister of Safety and Security. What we have resolved is that we should do that sooner rather than later. We should determine precisely how large the unit should be, how many people are going to be derived or come from the South African Police Service, particularly from the specialised units, and how many from the National Prosecuting Authority. The intention here is to integrate it in a way that is almost, you know, that is without any difficulty whatsoever. So rather than waiting for the proclamation of the legislation we have decided jointly that this process should start taking place immediately and that it should be a consultative process that involves both the Department of Safety and Security and the National Prosecuting Authority. So the conversation has commenced. We do believe that reasonably soon we would be able to indicate precisely what the nature and size of this unit would be for purposes of establishing an efficient unit, thank you.
Minister Mthethwa: On the issue of partnership with private security, we see this as a pilot project so to speak, we would want it to extend to the other parts of the provinces and both in urban and in rural areas where possible. It has been reported that so far there is enthusiasm insofar as that part of the country or that area is concerned; we hope that it will bear fruit. There are challenges which we are dealing with internally, particularly when you look at private security, that this partnership will exclude people who have not been screened and cleared in terms of security, thank you.
Minister Cwele: On the crackdown on the hate speech in the political rallies. The cluster really will really appeal to all South Africans to observe tolerance and avoid provocation in those meetings or rallies wherever they may be held in the country. Because we have got electoral laws which define the code of conduct we should observe as political parties. Obviously those who will then breach those regulations as set down in terms of electoral laws will then have to face the long arm of the law. But we really appeal to the political leaders of all the parties to instil it in their followers that there must be tolerance and must avoid provocation, thank you.
Journalist: Sorry, part of my question wasn’t answered. Have you any indication how many members of the DSO have indicated they will quit?
Minister Mthethwa: It was answered with due respect, by the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development, where he said we have already started consultation on the nitty-gritty’s between the two departments. We may have ideas as to how many, but we are taking everything into consideration. At this point, as I say, we have an idea which I don’t want to reveal here. We are busy with consultation. Taking into cognisance especially the mammoth task this unit DPCI, will be faced with, thank you.
Journalist: I did ask whether or not there were people chanting hate speech on national television, are they being investigated and will they be arrested?
Minister Mthethwa: The Minister of Intelligence started where we thought we needed to start as the cluster. That first and foremost there has to be a word from us which calls upon everybody, all stakeholders, all parties concerned, particularly the leadership of political parties together with Independent Electoral Commission (IEC) as they meet at that level to please refrain from any activity which would be construed as an act of provocation. Now we thought we needed to start there, we needed to talk to the public and strengthen that point. We didn’t think that because, you know, these are political matters, people would come with something else on this. We can’t act; we couldn’t have done anything before that. But you would know that there would be heightened competition around this time. All what we are emphasising is any possibility of provocation to violence or hate speech. As at the point nobody has been charged on any such activity, thank you.
Journalist: I think my question is directed to the cluster as a whole. The ANC President (Jacob Zuma) lately in the meetings which he addresses, he always talks about the laws of this country as being criminal-friendly, and those they don’t bite. Can I get a comment from you as to what you make of this? Could we see some change in the laws to make it bite as he says?
Minister Surty: Well, seriously, you know, we have the problem with serious crimes and certainly it’s a question of how we apply the laws in terms of investigation and prosecution. And we shouldn’t seen… or deemed to be regarding serious criminal offences as being… offenders as being treated leniently. We do have within the array of laws that are available minimum sentences for serious crimes involving serious violent crimes, murder, and rape etcetera. And these have to be applied. So it’s really up to the judicial officers to exercise and apply the law in the appropriate measures. With regard to constitutional rights, these are entrenched in the Constitution. Whether you speak about perpetrators or suspects, offenders, I think these have to be protected and we have a responsibility to do so. I think the appeal by the president of the African National Congress is really to say let’s take the issue of crime seriously. It’s a cancer, it’s something that’s endemic, it’s something that affects society and stability, its peace and security. And certainly the entire criminal justice system from the police service to the prosecution authorities to the judicial offices exercising their discretion should take this as a serious challenge. So I think that appeal must… well, it’s interpreted as a comprehensive appeal or a comprehensive response to the issue of serious crime. It certainly is not intended to compromise any rights that are enshrined in the Constitution. Thank you.
Deputy Minister De Lange: Can I just add to what the Minister said. You know, I think one must look at the (ANC) President’s comments, always in context. The (ANC) President at no stage, as some people suggest, is suggesting that he wants us to undermine the constitution and peoples’ constitutional rights, as the minister has pointed out. So what the (ANC) President is raising is a very legitimate issue. We’ve got a serious crime problem. What he’s asking us, in the different mechanisms we have; obviously it’s always to find a balance between human rights and what our mechanism is to deal with a particular problem. So what he’s asking us, in every mechanism we have, let’s use a simple example like the right to remain silent.
Our law as it stands now says when you appear in court before the evidence is led, you have the right to remain silent. When you’re arrested you have the right to remain silent. Now the question can be asked, is such a complete and absolute right to remain silent, is it something that is acceptable in all democracies?
Now you can go for example, just study the United Kingdom, which I imagine most of us will think as a very advanced democracy. In that democracy for example, they have put certain conditions attached to the right to remain silent. So there you can look at one example that the (ANC) President would for example – I don’t know if that’s the specific example he thinks of, but let’s assume that’s one of them – you look at the way that we plead in courts. Again when we plea, we say you must plead to the case and tell us what your case is. But then we say no, you can keep quiet also if you want to. So we start the case off by starting on a basis of actually again not knowing anything. If you go to all democracies in the world, they would actually create certain obligations to you, what you do at the time of pleading and so on.
So I think that’s the context as I’ve always understood, the president of the ANC when he raises these issues, is do we on every mechanism we have, whether it’s the right to remain silent, whether its pleading, whether its anything else, do we have the right balances and particularly considering our problems we have with crime here, and do we have the right balance with human rights and that issue. That’s a very valid debate, it’s a very good debate that we should be having, because also in that process we of course educate ourselves about what kind of democracy we have. So I think the context in which the (ANC) President raises this is very, very important.
Journalist: I would like to ask Minister Surty whether traditional leaders are going to so to law school, what kind of training will they undergo to enhance the Justice System, how long will it be, what powers will they have? Do they know the constitution in and out? Is this a pilot project and so forth?
Minister Surty: Thank you very much for the question. I think it’s a very important question. What we can affirm is certainly that we recognise the role that traditional leaders have played in the past and continue to play. It’s not a revival of traditional courts. They do exist in our current conjuncture. What is important is given the fact that we are a constitutional democracy, while our decisions must be informed by a Bill of Rights, that this knowledge of understanding of the law as well as the constitution, becomes very critical. They would be really arbiters; they would deal with conflict resolutions. These are skills that can be acquired through the Justice College and so what we would have to develop as a result of the law, is the appropriate curriculum which would obviously not be…the threshold must be not so high to say that before you could actually preside in a court of that nature, you should have a degree or you should have the equivalent of a judicial officer, because the nature of the offences that they’re going to deal with would be very, very light offences, not serious offences and the civil disputes would have limitations in terms of discretion.
Currently for example, you have attorneys who serve voluntarily in our Small Claims Court. They are not judicial officers, but they are able to resolve disputes. Now the intention here is really to infuse in them an understanding of the human rights through a training programme, which will certainly be provided for in the Justice College to also begin to assess diagnostically what the depth of their understanding and knowledge are of these issues. One would have to develop a curriculum that is appropriate under the circumstances. What I can tell you is that the work has already started there. There would be a consultative process with the fact that traditional leaders will be carrying out this task on behalf of the community, on behalf of the Department of Justice, to ensure that when it does occur it occurs in a manner that is consistent with the public interest and also consistent with the Bill of Rights. Thank you very much for that very important question. It’s something that we should give serious attention to as we implement it.
Journalist: Good morning Minister. I have just a follow-up on one of the questions there. Can we take it that people have now been warned about enticing violence at political gatherings, that from now on some steps would be taken and people might be investigated if they make themselves guilty of such conduct? And perhaps just a bit more clarity on the arrangement between the Honeydew police and the private security companies, exactly how they will be working together?
Journalist: My question actually ties into Liezl’s last question. You spoke quite broadly about the partnership and co-operation between SAPS and the private security industry. Is it possible to have some practical examples of how this might actually play out and also what challenges are foreseen in this?
Minister Mthethwa: Now obviously, if there’s any complaint from any person about inflammatory language, the police will have a duty to investigate and as we said previously, the parties as they go to the electoral mode, will have to also sign a Code of Conduct and there will be penalties for those who breach that Code of Conduct and the laws of the country. So anyone who continues to breach that code or if there’s a complaint we have got the responsibility to make sure there’s a proper investigation and a prosecution of the case. Thank you.
Minister Surty: Thank you very much and I understand your concern given the fact that elections are imminent and the kind of responsibility that political leaders have in ensuring that they want the supporters to carry themselves out in very responsible ways. We can’t be inciting hate or any form of violence at all.
The quality legislation itself provides for hate speech but in our opinion, it’s not adequate enough. We have already prepared the draft legislation that deals specifically with hate speech and it’s already been sent out for public comment. I think one of the immediate and urgent responsibilities of the new administration would be to ensure that this matter is really introduced to parliament as soon as possible. So the draft legislation is available, there has been public comment and I’ve had a look at it. I personally am satisfied with it, but given the time constraints and the limitations that we have for the remaining period, it might be difficult to finalise this legislation.
However, you know, hate speech itself is…you know, there’s a prohibition – freedom of expression is there but the limitations in terms of hate speech is something that we have to look at very seriously and indeed, the point that the Minister of Intelligence has made is a very significant point, that in the context of the elections, clearly the legislation that deals with the election does make it an offence and certainly I would imagine all subjects, all citizens would be entitled to that recourse for any contravention that may well occur. So political parties as well as individuals would be entitled to complain about it and there could be criminal prosecution arising from such complaints in the context of the electoral laws that are available at this point in time. Thank you very much.
Minister Mthethwa: On the partnership firstly, I would want to say that we will call upon all particularly within the journalistic fraternity to assist in encouraging such partnerships, that practically the Memorandum of Understanding between the police station in Honeydew in this instance, is an example and different private security companies would be dealing with some specific issues. One of those is the training of private security personnel on crime scene preservations. Basic things like those because part of the criticism is that unlike the police service you may not be certain about the security integrity of people in the private security. Diverting and security screening would be done.
We hope to tap on the availability of resources like vehicles which are always… or some of them you find in the areas, in the suburbs, particularly from the private security. The utilisation of joint radio control for instance. So it’s quite a comprehensive partnership which needs to be looked into in its practise.
Perhaps I need to say that one of the reasons which make us to want to move with speed particularly in such partnerships is the fact that when it comes to the personnel in police, if you look at ratio, in South Africa, you have the police one to 347 citizens. And I base that on the census of 2002, surely you have more than that in South Africa today. And even with the programme of recruiting 10 000 police personnel every year is not actually making a significant dent insofar as this matter particularly, violent crimes and contact crimes as it were. So this partnership would be based by and largly controlled by the SAPS themselves.
But we also acknowledge that numerically the private security companies are more than SAPS as it were, nationally. If you look at this 176 000 personnel in SAPS but you take out about 70 000 which are not uniformed policemen and women, you’re left around about 95 000 to 98 000, so these are the people we expect visibility from them in the country, and we also expect some visibility from them around the borderline and so on. So this is how practically this thing is going to be unfolding which would be launching as I say as a pilot project and see how do… how successful it is and how do we take it out there, particularly around this time of festive season. Thank you.
Journalist: Minister Mthethwa, I’d just like to know whether this partnership involves any exchange of funds from government to the security companies, since they are more than the SAPS members. And my second question is the ANC president said yesterday that SAPS members, police, should be actually paid more than what they should be paid now, because they chase criminals, criminals with more money than they have. Do you believe that more money will change our police service?
Minister Mthethwa: Well, thank you. The issue of funds cannot arise at this point because SAPS are funded by… through the public purse. So there is no way that they would be tampering with that without the public knowing, and for that to happen we would have to have legislative process in place to deal with that.
The issue of the payment of SAPS, firstly I would want to highlight a point which makes us to arrive at a conclusion that we need to certain instances release police even to apply strong arm tactics to some of the criminality in the country. If you look particularly for the past week you have more than eight police personnel who have been murdered on duty, trying to apprehend criminals. Now it is important coming from us to emphasise the point that we definitely wouldn’t expect police faced with that kind of a situation to take out some human rights charter and, you know, display that to criminals. They have to be strong insofar that is concerned. Because of the dangerous situation police are working on, and generally there has been this call, not only from the president of the ANC but people have said we need to take care of our police because they work under serious and difficult, also dangerous situations. We would support that, but you see we’d have to look everything within the public service administration and what is possible and what is not possible. But there is an intention, there is a will for us to boost the morale of police, and this is the point we are emphasising, that the fact that people have identified some few rogue elements within the police service should not paint the entire service with a brush. And you must at this point commend some of the steps taken by police to arrest their fellow police, policemen and women, particularly men, who have been involved in some criminal activities as it were.
Enquiries:
Bongiwe Gambu
Cell: 076 403 9496
Colin Cruywagen
Cell: 082 377 9916
Issued by: Government Communications (GCIS)
30 October 2008
