media briefing conducted by President Thabo Mbeki and an interview of President
Mbeki by the SABC, on the SADC Summit held in Lusaka
17 August 2007
SADC media briefing by President Thabo Mbeki
* Economic integration
* Launch of the SADC brigade
* DRC, Lesotho and Zimbabwe
* Zimbabwe facilitation
* SADC economic integration
* Zimbabwe facilitation
Interview of President Thabo Mbeki by SABC
* Zimbabwe facilitation
* SADC economic integration
* SADC gender protocol
* Former Deputy Minister of Health
Post SADC media briefing by President
Thabo Mbeki
President Mbeki: This is an ordinary SADC Summit. Its focus was discussed at
the Maseru Summit last year.
There was a concern about the rate of progress that the region is making
with regard to the challenge of integration. It was decided, because of that
concern, there would be an extraordinary summit of SADC in between the ordinary
summits. That Summit was held, as you remember, at Gallagher Estate, at home,
in October last year, focusing particularly on economic integration. In that
context it addressed the program that had been agreed, starting with the
establishment of a SADC free trade area by 2008; proceeding to the formation of
a customs union by 2010; proceeding to a common market by 2015.
So, the extraordinary summit last year at Gallagher Estate tried to look
quite intensively at whether, in fact, we would be able to meet these targets
that we have set ourselves. Arising out of that extraordinary summit, the
matter was referred back a ministerial committee, to look at it again so that
we could take some decisions now. As you have heard, this summit has now
confirmed that we must proceed with the free trade area by 2008. It has shifted
the date by some months, so that the agreement is that we should have this free
trade area declared when the SADC ordinary summit meets next, which is August
next year, a year from now.
You know what a free-trade area is. It means that there will be no tariffs
that will apply to products originating within the region and traded within the
region. So, that becomes a free trade area. That is a very important step. It
is a very challenging step. What makes it particularly challenging is, of
course, the strength of the South African economy. Where you remove all tariffs
within a free trade area, South African goods can enter any of the SADC markets
tariff free, in the same way that all goods in the SADC area can enter the
South African market tariff free.
So, the particular challenge is the strength of the South African economy,
because where you no longer have the possibility of protecting your domestic
industry by way of tariffs, then indeed, you could have serious challenges
facing industry within SADC. This is why this decision is very important. But
you could not address the issue of integration within the region without
addressing that matter.
So, all of the countries have made commitments that, indeed, by the time we
get to August next year, everybody would have come to this position where we
have within the SADC area, tariff-free trade. It is still going to require a
lot of work, because some countries will have to reduce tariffs by between 50%
and 60% in the period that is left. But everybody has made a commitment: let's
indeed, by August 2008, have arrived at a situation where we can indeed declare
this free trade area.
There was a related discussion that took place, which is about
infrastructure development, infrastructure of all sorts. The SADC secretariat
has been working with the New Partnership for Africa's Development (NEPAD)
secretariat on this matter. Because, of course, free trade within the SADC area
presumes the possibility to conduct trade, transport, customs arrangements,
requiring infrastructure of all sorts. And, indeed, a whole variety of
infrastructure projects have been identified, which would facilitate this
movement of goods within the region.
That is the second important decision that was taken. What must then happen
is that we must look at all of these infrastructure development projects, which
have got to do with roads; have got to do with ports and harbours; have got to
do with railways; they have got to do with the telecommunications network, to
ensure that those projects are aligned with national programs.
They are regional but they impact on country programs. For instance, the one
that I am sure everybody is familiar with concerns the issue of energy. It is
an old agreement that we should develop hydro electrical generation from the
Inga falls in the Democratic Republic of Congo, to help to address the energy
challenge in the region as a whole. That is agreed. But the generating plant
will be in the Democratic Republic of Congo. So, the region needs to talk in
detail with the Congolese government about that project. That is what I mean by
making sure that you deal with these regional infrastructure projects and
relate them to national programs.
So, this second important thing is related to the creation of free trade
area, customs union, and so on.
With regard to the customs union, its particular feature is that the
countries within SADC would have one tariff system with regard to the rest of
the world. So, it does not matter through which country any particular product
entered, the same tariff will be charged. That will have its own particular
challenges, like the free trade area. One of the matters that arises is that
part of state revenues are collected from customs and excise. So when you drop
tariffs within the SADC region in terms of the free trade area, you have got to
look at the question of how you compensate for the losses in revenue that will
result. The same applies with regard to the establishment of this common
customs area because, again, with regard to goods that are entering the customs
union area, where the customs have been reduced and they are the same
everywhere, you might very well have revenue losses which have an impact on
budgets.
I am trying to indicate the complexity of the matter, but it is critically
important, before I talk about regional integration. You cannot avoid
addressing these matters.
Now with the customs union it was agreed that our ministers would meet in
October to look at the matter. We have set 2010 as the date for the customs
union to come into effect. We will be able to do it. We need to know, what will
be the consequences, all round, of all sorts, so that we should be able by the
next SADC summit, to confirm on the basis of a practical understanding of the
implications, the date for the customs union. So that as the free trade area
comes into effect a year hence, we should at that point be able to say: we will
be able to have a customs union two years later, with all the implications of
that. As well, of course, as I was saying, you have to deal with this matter of
the regional infrastructure which facilitates that integration.
The principal outcome of this is a very important step forward, addressing
this matter of regional integration. There are some other elements to it, which
are necessarily associated with it, issues like trade facilitation, common
industrial policies and that kind of thing.
A further major thing, which is really a culmination of work that has been
going on for a very long time, was the launch of the SADC Brigade.
You saw units from 11 different armies and police forces and so on, which
were able, as you could see in a physical sense, to march to one step and drill
together. It has taken a long time to prepare that Brigade, but it is there
now.
I think it is a very strong indication of the progress the region is making
towards, not just economic integration but integration in other respects. In
fact, as far as I know, it is the first of the Continental brigades that are
required by decision of the African Union to form the all-African standby
force. It is a very, very important step forward. Todayâs launch of the Brigade
was the culmination of work that has been going on for quite a long time.
At a summit of the organ of SADC on politics, defence and so on, in March
this year, three things were discussed.
One was the situation, as it was then, in the Democratic Republic of Congo,
relating to conflict that had taken place in Kinshasa involving one of the
former vice-presidents of the Congo, Juan Pierre Bemba, who, as you remember,
ended up staying in a South African diplomatic compound and then left for
Portugal. That summit in Dar es Salaam in March discussed the Congo and took
certain positions. But the situation in the Congo has normalised now.
It also discussed the political situation in Lesotho after the Lesotho
elections. Some work has been done with regard to that and in the end President
Ketumile Masire was appointed as the SADC envoy to deal with the Lesotho
matter, which he has been doing. But there are two court cases that the
opposition parties have taken to the Lesotho courts concerning the elections
and so it was agreed that, since there was these judicial processes, the
mediation process would have to be put on hold to allow for the court cases to
be resolved and then the mediation would continue. That is where the matter of
Lesotho is, which was also discussed in Dar es Salaam in March.
The third matter that was discussed in Dar es Salaam in March was, of
course, Zimbabwe, and there were two elements to it.
One of them, as you know, was that we should facilitate discussions between
the government, Zanu-PF, on one side and the MDC on the other. So we reported,
as directed, to the troika of the SADC organ on politics, defence and so on. We
reported to the SADC troika about those discussions and the SADC troika
reported to the full summit, essentially to say, this is work in progress. The
delegations have been meeting, government and the MDC, on the basis of an
agenda that they agreed among themselves. They are continuing to talk among
themselves. They are making progress in those discussions and as soon as we
have an outcome of that process we will, of course, report to the new Chair of
the SADC organ on politics, that is President Dos Santos of Angola. And I would
imagine he would probably want to convene a summit of everybody to give a
report of that outcome.
But it really is a report of work in progress. As I am sure you heard in the
statement, the SADC summit just urged everybody to continue to speed up that
process, because like the Zimbabweans, everybody is interested that when the
presidential and parliamentary elections take place in March next year in
Zimbabwe, they should be held in an atmosphere that would result in free and
fair elections without controversies.
With regard to the economic part of that decision, the Dar es Salaam March
meeting asked the SADC secretariat to look at the Zimbabwean economy to see in
what ways the SADC region can assist Zimbabwe in its economic recovery. The
SADC secretariat did that, sent in a team, went in and out of Zimbabwe and
spoke to everybody, absolutely everybody, government, business, and labour, to
get to a proper sense of what is happening and prepared a report.
It was agreed that that report should be looked at in greater detail by the
finance ministers and I am sure that they are going to require the support of
other ministers of the region. They will look at that report, as prepared by
the SADC secretariat, and liaise and discuss with the Zimbabwe government, in
order to pin down in some detail what the region can do with regard to that
process of economic recovery. That committee of ministers will no doubt do
that, and, as on the political side, they will report to the Chair of the SADC
organ on politics and take the matter from there.
So, those are basically the political issues, really a report of work in
progress.
But the military one was the conclusion of work that has been going on and
the economic one involved some commitments on economic integration, which is
also going to require quite a lot of work.
So our own view is that the summit did address the matters it needed to
address and, indeed, it has gone very well.
Ms Nkosazana Dlamini Zuma, Minister of Foreign Affairs: There was also one
component of strengthening SADC itself to mention. There is going to be a
meeting of the Council in October to discuss how to strengthen SADC. There was
a study done on all the jobs of SADC, a report will come in October, in an
effort to strengthen the capacity of SADC to be able to do all the things that
the President has been talking about. That is all I want to add.
Independent Newspapers: This recovery plan for Zimbabwe, will there, will
conditions be attached to the plan? Will it be linked to your liaison
efforts?
President Mbeki: No, they are not linked in that sense. What the SADC summit
said in Dar es Salaam was that there are two major groups of problems in
Zimbabwe: political problems, let's deal with them like this; economic
problems, let's deal with them like this. It was looking for a global solution
to address all of the challenges facing Zimbabwe. Nobody is talking about
conditionalities about anything; rather that there are problems that need to be
addressed, economic and political, so let us address them. That is all. Nobody
has said that there should be conditionalities attached to finding solutions.
Solutions must be found and that is all.
Sunday Times: Are there deadlines, Mr President, on the issue of the
facilitation that you are undertaking and also on the issue of the economic
side of things? That by a specific date, you should have moved thus far.
On the issue of trade, Mr President, I want to check, one of the challenges
that might arise on the free trade issue could be the issue of trade diversion,
because South Africa obviously also imports goods from Europe, which find
themselves also in the other SADC countries. How do you deal with that? And
also the question of the current negotiations of the EU partnership, the
development partnership, that are going on inside of that.
President Mbeki: As I have said with regard to the political negotiations,
and again, I hope you heard the communiqué at the end which said that
everybody, SADC and the Zimbabweans, we are all concerned that when the
parliamentary and presidential elections take place next year in March, by that
time, all of these matters that are subject to negotiation among the
Zimbabweans, with our facilitation, would have been resolved. That is what the
Zimbabweans themselves are saying.
So you have to deal with all of those matters in a manner that would make
that positive impact on those elections. Any deadlines that would be set, would
be deadlines that are set by the process. There is nobody who is saying that
everything must be concluded by the 31st of August. It is that process that
would determine what happens.
With regard to the economic ones, there is urgency. Everybody insisted that
there is an urgency for us to get into this matter and that the finance
ministers would engage this matter immediately. I think we have to await their
work, because the aim is not to describe what is happening in Zimbabwe. The aim
is to elaborate measures that can be taken to help to correct the
situation.
So, no. It was not said that by Tuesday have a result, rather that the
ministers must engage in these matters immediately with a view to seeing what
it is that can be done as quickly as possible. I am sure that everybody would
want to address the matter with the necessary urgency.
With regard to these trade diversion matters, everybody in the region
imports something from somewhere. In this customs union, for instance, we
import things from all countries and we are one customs union, the Southern
African Customs Union and collect customs according to an agreed formula and
distribute the revenues from what has been collected as a result of those
customs.
So, one of the matters that are very central to these free trade areas and
all that, is this issue of rules of origin. It would apply in this area also.
It is a matter that is under discussion and, indeed, it was decided now that we
need to refine and simplify the formula that we have currently with regard to
rules of origin, so that it is simpler and easier to implement. That is what is
used to determine what product actually originates from within the region. It
is not everything that is traded in the region that would have duty-free
status.
If there are products that clearly, in terms of those rules of origin,
originate from outside of the region, rather than being produced and
manufactured in the region, of course a different tariff would apply. So the
rules of origin would deal with the matter of whatever comes into the region.
If you make a shed somewhere in the world and then bring it to South Africa and
then just stick a label, "Made in South Africa", whereas it has been made
somewhere else, the rules of origin would deal with that, indicating that the
shed is actually not made here, that it has a false label saying, "Made in
South Africa". You would deal with matters of that nature in that way.
City Press: Civil society groups, say that with regards to the talks that
are taking place, they would have liked the talks to include them as well,
because they can make a contribution to dealing with the situation in Zimbabwe.
Do you think yourself that broadening the talks would enhance the talks?
President Mbeki: We have discussed that matter with Zimbabwean civil
society. And our view was that these negotiations, like everywhere else, would
be negotiations between the political parties in Zimbabwe, as reflected, for
instance, in the Zimbabwe parliament.
But we said to the organisations of civil society that we, as facilitator,
would keep in contact with them and engage them and make certain that matters
that they would want to raise would also be dealt with in the negotiation
process. You know that we then had a meeting with them. They came to South
Africa, the Zimbabwe civil society organisations, and had a meeting with us on
Tuesday this week as part of that process. We engaged them, gave them an
account of what is happening in the process, listened to what they have to
raise, and in reality, the matters that they raised, which they thought should
be dealt with in the negotiations were matters that were already on the agenda
of the negotiations.
So they have agreed that we should proceed in the way that we had proposed;
that we continue to engage them; that negotiations will go on and that we will
keep them informed; that they will feed into the facilitator who will feed into
the negotiations and that on that basis, they will support the negotiations. So
that particular matter which, you are right, had been raised by them in the
past, that they wanted to be sitting around the negotiation table, we have
discussed and we have sorted that out. The formula that is used is the formula
that was used now on Tuesday when they were in South Africa.
Interview of President Thabo Mbeki by
SABC
SABC Miranda Strydom: Mr President, we can start with a question that
everybody has been talking about, the Zimbabwean issue. Where do we go to from
here? You presented the report to SADC. What is the next step now?
President Mbeki: Well, the Zimbabwe thing is very simple really. You know
what the decisions were that were taken by the Summit of SADC in Dar es Salaam
in March. As a result of that, we have been, AS agreed, been facilitating
discussions between the Zimbabwe government and the MDC. That is work in
progress. They identified an agenda between them; the issues that they thought
were issues in contention about the political situation in Zimbabwe. They
agreed on that agenda and have been engaging with that agenda.
The negotiations are continuing and I must say they are going on very well,
in a very very positive atmosphere among the Zimbabweans. They have set dates
for themselves as to when they think they would have concluded Item 1, Item 2,
item whatever. And so what we had to report here was work in progress that is
taking place in a very positive, very constructive atmosphere, in a situation
in which, as was indicated by the SADC Summit, the Zimbabweans themselves are
saying that the discussions they are having must make a positive impact on the
parliamentary and presidential elections scheduled for March next year.
Of course, whenever the negotiations are concluded we will come back to SADC
to report. So SADC noted the progress that has been done, urged that we move
with greater speed and, indeed, hoped that the outcome would have that positive
impact on the elections next year. That is work in progress.
With regard to the economic initiative regarding Zimbabwe, the SADC sector
prepared the report they were supposed to prepare and the Summit agreed that
the finance ministers must look at that report in detail and discuss it with
the Zimbabwe government with a view to elaboration of a specific program as to
what kind of assistance in Zimbabwe needs. So that also was work in progress
which the Summit accepted.
So from here we must just continue to do and complete the political and
economic work that has been going on to implement the decisions that were taken
in March.
SABC: But with the elections not far from now, they are a few months away,
you do say that you get a sense that all parties are now willing to engage?
President Mbeki: Well, they had been willing to engage from the beginning,
not now. The Zimbabweans are very very clear about the importance of these
elections next year, and they are very committed to resolving and concluding
whatever it is that they need to conclude in a way that would make this
positive impact on the elections next year.
I must say, also, that we have engaged civil society in Zimbabwe, who had
originally wanted to be party to the negotiations. We thought that that would
not be wise because we are dealing with political negotiations, in which
political organisations are involved. But we recognise also the fact that civil
society in Zimbabwe would of course be interested in this. We agreed with them
that the facilitator would engage them, which we have done, and they are very
happy with that and have agreed that they will continue to interact with the
facilitator, that the facilitator would keep them informed about what is going
on in the negotiations, that they would feed into the facilitator whatever
issues they want to raise, but that they are fully supportive of the process of
negotiations.
So, the political parties in Zimbabwe and civil society are very much on
board with regard to this. The Summit noted and accepted all of that, expressed
its support and just urged that let us all complete these processes as quickly
as we can.
SABC: President, if you can clarify this. There has been a lot of criticism
around your mediation on the Zimbabwe question. You have been involved in
previous efforts, the DRC and others, but this has been very closely guarded.
Why is this?
President Mbeki: There is nothing that has been closely guarded. We have
always insisted, as we continue to do now, that fundamentally the problems of
Zimbabwe will be solved by the people of Zimbabwe. There is no resolution of
the problems of Zimbabwe that can be imposed on the Zimbabweans from outside.
Anybody who tries this is going to fail. So, the principal responsibility for
the resolution of these problems in Zimbabwe lies with the Zimbabweans. That is
why we are facilitators. We facilitate the discussion among Zimbabweans. That
is all that has happened.
For instance, I have said in the past that, some years back, the
Zimbabweans, the Zanu-PF, government and MDC, where involved at some stage in
informal talks which focused on working on a new constitution, and indeed said
at some point that they concluded those discussions. I did not hide it. That
was true, except that people who did not think that the Zimbabweans could agree
among themselves thought that I was cooking up something. Whereas they can, as
they are agreeing now, and they had agreed then, and indeed in the current
negotiations are looking at that document again. So, we have not hidden
anything.
I think that part of the problem has been skepticism, which I do not
understand, about the possibility of the Zimbabweans to sit among themselves
and engage one another about whatever the issues are, which they are doing now
and I am sure will continue to do.
SABC: Moving on to the question of integration and now, SADC. We now have to
move towards launching the FTA. What are some of the priorities for us to be
able to get there? Clearly there must be a lot of issues that we still, or
hurdles that we still have to overcome before we actually get to that
point.
President Mbeki: With regard to the free trade area, you know what
essentially the free trade agreement is about is the removal of tariffs in
terms of goods that originate from within the SADC area, so that we have free
trade within the area.
Now, that means that everybody must remove tariffs that still apply to goods
originating from within the region. Now, we have moved at different speeds with
regard to this. We had agreed on what was called an asymmetrical process, which
meant that South Africa, because of the strength and the size of its economy,
had to move ahead of everybody in removing those tariffs for goods originating
from within the region into the South African market. We have done that. But
other countries have moved at a different pace, as was allowed.
We are now coming to an end of this eight year period that was agreed. So,
countries - and that is a big challenge - have got to deal with the remaining
tariffs between now and 12 months from now.
No doubt, each country will have to make very serious assessments: in part
about what will be the impact on their economies of the removal of tariffs,
what will be the impact in terms of productive capacity.
When you allow, for instance, South African goods to enter your market
duty-free, you must consider how you adjust to that if the South African
products become cheaper, more competitive and your consumers find them better,
and say let us buy the South African product because it is better than the
homegrown product. Countries will have to assess how they deal with that.
The second matter they will have to deal with is the extent that public
revenues depend on collection of customs as result of those tariffs. If those
tariffs disappear that source of revenue disappears. What do you do with your
budget. So, they have to deal with those questions.
But each country made a commitment here that they had indeed been working on
all of these things and would be able to meet the target of August 2008 for us
to say that we are now a free trade area.
SABC: And this gender protocol, the fact that we have now put it in place.
How does SADC actually intend to make sure that we meet those targets, in real
terms?
President Mbeki: As you know, the draft protocol has been referred back to
the member states to look at, so that people can make their comments and
refinements. So the first thing is to complete it and agree to it. Once that is
done the implementation comes into force.
For some years now SADC has had a reporting requirement that, with regard to
these various benchmarks with regard to the gender question, we must, all of us
give an annual report as to how far we have moved. It was really an application
of peer pressure. But I think that clearly one of the things that will happen
is that we shall have to look at best practice in the region to see how
together we expedite what will become this formal document once the protocol is
signed and ratified.
I think that essentially it will be an application of peer pressure and the
use of best practice within the region to advance that objective of gender
parity.
SABC: The SADC Brigade. Can we expect to see it deployed, maybe in Darfur or
maybe the east of Congo. What would be the priority areas for the SADC Brigade?
Would it just be the region or the entire Continent? That is what my question
is.
President Mbeki: No. It is a regional brigade, to be deployed in the region
as the need arises, either in whole or in part. But it is also very much part
of the African Union standby force, so, it can indeed be deployed by the
African Union elsewhere on the Continent. I do not suppose it will be deployed
in Darfur, because, as I understand it, the number of troops required in terms
of the hybrid force have already been committed by various African countries.
So, there is a full complement for that. But, in principle, it could have been
deployed in Darfur by the African Union.
Former Deputy Minister
of Health
SABC: Mr. President, away now from SADC. What do you make of these reports
that are coming from, or the reaction, or the criticisms, or the reaction
coming that you are coming from some quarters with regard to the dismissal of
the Deputy Health Minister?
President Mbeki: Well, I wrote a letter to the then Deputy Minister of
Health, explaining to her why I was relieving her of her duties as a deputy
minister of, having suggested to her that she should resign, which she refused.
So, I dismissed her. We released that letter publicly, because though we would
not have done it normally, people were advancing all sorts of wrong reasons as
to why we had done that.
As I said in that letter I had been raising this matter with the deputy
minister for a long time, that when you are in government, even according to
the Constitution, even according to the oath that you take, the Oath of Office
that is administered by the judges, everybody belongs to a collective and you
take collective responsibility for government decisions; that there is nobody
who serves in government and has the freedom to say anything they like against
government policy; and that, indeed, the normal procedure in all countries, if
you disagree with government policy, then you resign from government. You
cannot say: I am going to stand up and disagree with government policy
publicly; and insist on staying in government.
So it is a matter that I have been discussing with the Deputy Minister for
some time, when she was Deputy Minister of Defense and later when she was
Deputy Minister of Health, to try to assist her to understand what is, in fact,
a very simple thing, that if you are in an organisation you have got to behave
in a particular way. When I suggested that she should resign, because I could
see that she was intent to act outside of the bounds of what would be required
in terms of collective decision-making, collective action and it seemed to me
only logical that a person who did not want to accept that discipline should
say, look, I disagree with government and I am leaving. They are very free to
express whatever opinion they have. But nevertheless she insisted that she does
not want to go anywhere, so that left us with no choice.
It is a very simple matter, a very straightforward matter and indeed the
ordinary population in South Africa understand this thing very well. They sent
messages and they called and they say, but President, this matter is very
simple. Even in my church, in the women's manyano, we do not allow that. You
cannot belong here and wear the uniform that we wear, when we take decisions at
our meetings and then you go and state your own thing and hope to remain among
us. It is a very simple matter. The ordinary people in this country understand
this matter very well. There are some people who I think have decided they do
not want to understand what, in fact, is a very simple matter. And that is all
there is to it.
SABC: Thank you very much.
Issued by: The Presidency
17 August 2007
