T Mbeki: Responses to parliamentary questions

18 May 2006

QUESTION NO: 1
Mrs T J Tshivhase (ANC): In light of the fact that the United Nations declared
the period 1997 to 2006 as the Decade for the Eradication of Poverty, what
contribution has been made by South Africa to the effort to eradicate global
poverty?

President Thabo Mbeki: First of all let me thank the honourable Tshivhase
for posing this question which draws our attention to this important challenge
of the eradication of poverty globally. As the question indicates, the United
Nations have declared the period 1997 to 2006 as a Decade for the Eradication
of Poverty.

Of course you would be aware that since that resolution of the General
Assembly of the United Nations, there have been at least three important
conferences of the United Nations that have focused on this matter, and would
therefore have had an impact on the decisions that were taken at that time by
the General Assembly. I’m referring here to the World Summit on Sustainable
Development in Johannesburg, the Millennium Conference Summit of the United
Nations in 2000, and the Monterey Conference on Financing for Development, all
of which addressed this particular matter.

The Honourable Member wants to know what contribution has been made by South
Africa to the effort to eradicate global poverty, so to that extent she’s not
asking that we address matters that are domestic. But of course I must say that
our own effort to address the matter of poverty has got to start at home. So
our first response to that Decade for the Eradication of Poverty has got to be
about what we are doing domestically.

With regard to that I’d like to say that indeed ever since a democratic
government was constituted our programs have focused precisely on this issue,
and it would be relatively easy to give a comprehensive account to the National
Assembly as to what has been done with regard to this: whether it relates to
the management of the public finances; measures that have been introduced in
order to achieve redistribution of wealth and income; matters that relate to
interventions in the economy to make it grow, so that we have greater volumes
of wealth with which to address this matter; and various other matters.

So our first element of South Africa’s contribution to the effort to
eradicate global poverty would have to be the domestic effort to address what
is indeed a very important matter in our own country. Essentially what we’ve
done in the last 12 years has indeed been to focus on this issue.

The second element of that response has been on the continent - on Africa -
more relevant therefore to the question that the Honourable Member poses. And
I’ll say something about that.

The third element of that response is the more global participation of our
country in processes that have sought to address this matter.

The resolution of the General Assembly, December 1996, which declared this
the first decade for the Eradication of Poverty with the theme, “Eradicating
Poverty is an ethical, social, political and economic imperative of humankind”.
The main objective of the decade is the eradication of absolute poverty and a
substantial reduction of overall poverty in the world.

It constitutes a commitment by developing countries to direct resources
freed through debt relief, debt reduction and debt cancellation to an
integrated poverty eradication strategy and national plans towards
poverty-eradication activities, sustainable economic growth and development,
social protection for the poorest and most vulnerable, including women and
children, priority areas of social sector spending, including provision of
basic services, primary education and healthcare, good governance, including
the economic and political empowerment of citizens, efficient, transparent and
accountable institutions and the international agreed Millennium Development
Goals, which came later.

Further, it is also a commitment by developed countries to promote
capacity-building and facilitate access to and transfer of technologies and
corresponding knowledge on favourable terms, ensure a more open and equitable
system of international finance, facilitate access by the poor in developing
countries to micro-finance, increase development assistance to 0.7% of gross
national product of the wealthier countries, with greater coordination of that
assistance and opening the markets of the developed countries to the exports of
the developing countries.

And so we’ve had to respond to those goals as set by that resolution of the
General Assembly which declared the decade.

Last year’s United Nations summit on the Millennium Development Goals came
to the conclusion clearly that insufficient progress is being made towards the
achievement of the Millennium Development Goals decided in 2000. It drew
particular attention to the fact that our continent was falling behind with
regard to this. The commitment by the developed countries to increase their
development assistance to that 0.7% of GNP had not been met by most countries
except the Nordic countries and the Netherlands.

It said nevertheless that absolute poverty in most parts of the world had
declined, but had increased in Africa by 100 million people since 1990. However
the trend of economic growth in Africa has shown an upswing of 1.2% per year
since 2000.

I think the Members are familiar with what we have been doing with regard to
what I said was the second response to the challenge that was posed by the
United Nations, that second response concentrating on the African continent. I
know there is general agreement, that what is fundamentally important on the
African continent in order to achieve this objective of the eradication of
poverty and achieving the necessary rates of growth is the matter of achieving
peace and stability, security, freedom, democracy on our continent, so that we
do indeed create the conditions that would enable us to address the development
challenges which the decade sought to address.

And in that regard I think the house is familiar with the work that we have
been doing as a country to assist in the resolution of a whole variety of
problems and challenges on the continent that have to do with peace and
stability and democracy, including the interventions that we have made with
regard to the DRC, to Rwanda, to Burundi, Somalia, the Darfur region,
Cote-d'Ivoire and the Comoros.

That’s a very important part of the response that we’ve made as a country to
the call by the United Nations that we should indeed eradicate global
poverty.

And I’m happy, Madam Speaker, to say indeed that with regard to all of these
matters where we have intervened, there is indeed progress. It doesn’t mean
that there are no problems that persist. Recently the Cabinet made a decision
that we should contribute to a multilateral debt relief initiative, and commit
once-off payments to the World Bank’s International Development Association,
the IDA, and the African Development Bank. The objective of these interventions
is to deepen debt relief to the Highly Indebted Poor Countries in order to help
them to reach their Millennium Development Goals. Globally we actively
participate in all manner of initiatives, including the negotiations at the
World Trade Organisation, to build a global trading system focused on what was
agreed at Doha, which was correctly characterised as a Doha Development Round.
And I think globally there is acceptance that the world trading system needs to
be changed in a manner that would impact positively on this matter of
addressing global poverty. I better stop, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you, President. Honourable Tshivhase

Honourable Tshivhase (ANC): [Question asked in tshiVenda ]

President Thabo Mbeki: Madam Speaker, can I ask Minister Mufamadi to
translate please?

Minister Mufamadi: Speaking one of the eleven languages that are recognised
in the country, the Honourable Tshivhase wants to know: in view of the
difficulties that were experienced during the last round of the WTO
negotiations, what steps does the President think South Africa needs to follow
in order to ensure that notwithstanding those difficulties, progress can be
realised?

President Thabo Mbeki: The issue of the WTO negotiations of course is a
matter of concern I think to everybody around the world.

As I indicated, we all of us accepted, and all of us said that this was the
Doha Development Round. So central to the outcome of the Doha WTO process was
this matter of development. And therefore the fundamental outcome of this
process of negotiations at the WTO would have to address the issue of
development, and therefore the matter of the reduction of poverty globally, as
was indicated this decade of the reduction of poverty.

There is indeed a serious problem part of which relates to agreement with
regard to agricultural support provided to farmers, both within the European
Union and the United States, which creates these difficult problems of access
by agricultural products from the developing countries. We still hope that in
the ongoing negotiations both the EU and the United States in particular would
be able to change their positions. I’m saying we hope. I’m sure none of us can
make any commitment that they will indeed do that. But we hope they would be
able to change their positions to address these issues of market access and the
possibility for agricultural products from the developing countries to enter
these markets on a just basis, without having to confront the subsidies which
are provided to the farmers in these areas. You know that South Africa belongs
to an important group that’s engaged in negotiations with the G-20. South
Africa continues to engage with that group to try and persuade the developed
world to make the necessary changes. We interact with these processes in all
other forums in order to achieve this objective,

So the answer to the question is that we shall continue to do what we’ve
done in the past to engage as vigorously as we can in the negotiations that
should produce a successful and acceptable outcome, with regards to this issue
of market access for agricultural products and therefore the related issues of
the subsidies that are paid by the developed countries to their farmers.
 
Honourable Boinamo (DA): Honourable President, as part of the global community
South Africa is also concerned with the eradication of poverty within its own
borders. In September 2005 the United Nations released its annual human
development report. The HDI focuses on three measurable dimensions of human
development. One – living a long and healthy life. Two – being educated. And
three – having a decent standard of living. South Africa ranked 120th out of
177 countries and has fallen 35 places since 1990. How does the President
explain this dramatic drop in the standard of living in our country under this
government and what steps is it taking to reverse the situation? Thank you
Madam Speaker.
 
President Thabo Mbeki: The report to which the Honourable Member refers is not
prepared by us. It is prepared by the UNDP and maybe they are the ones to
explain how they have come to this conclusion. Because the conclusion is wrong.
The conclusion is patently wrong.

The Minister of Finance, the honourable Trevor Manuel, has been engaging the
United Nations Development Programme on this report. To us there are very
specific questions about the actual information on which they come to these
conclusions and I would imagine that the UNDP would in time provide us with
that information, because we are quite convinced that the information on which
they based this determination to which the Honourable Member has referred, is
wrong. But they made the determination. Quite how they did it is exactly the
explanation that we are seeking that the Honourable Member says I must explain.
But we didn’t draw up the report; it is not our report.

The UNDP must explain and that is why the Minister of Finance is engaging
them – to get that explanation. I am quite sure that should the UNDP point us
to certain realities of South Africa, which result in our falling 35 places, of
course we would address them.

But I am quite convinced that the report is wrong and I’d be very interested
to hear how the UNDP explains itself.
 
Honourable Vos (IFP): Mister President, as you’ve indicated in global terms the
continent of Africa must be seen as the most in need in terms of poverty
eradication. Now, our regional economic integration and political cooperation
have been agreed by African Leadership as vital to achieve this and it has been
envisaged that in a multi-phased approach, that one should first of all
dismantle tariff barriers and customs duties among African countries, moving
finally to an African common market.

Now how confident are you that this can be achieved in the short term? Can
you give us any idea, because there were documents that one was looking at
indicating hopefully this being able to be done by 2007, which doesn’t seem to
be able to be the case. Could you give us some idea of your views in terms of
how we can reach these goals in terms of regional integration and what the
problems are? Thank you.
 
President Thabo Mbeki: I suppose it does depend on how short the short term is.
Certainly if the short term is 2007, then it is too short. In the course of the
implementation of the NEPAD programmes one of the matters that has become very
clear is that a lot of work needs to be done to strengthen the regional
economic communities, SADC, ECOWAS and so on. Because these are central
instruments for achieving the economic integration of the continent that we
have aspired to, to which the Honourable Member refers, which includes the
matter of creating free trade areas on the continent, regionally and then
building up to cover the continent as a whole.

I am saying that one of the serious problems that have surfaced has been
that our regional economic communities are not strong enough, and haven’t had
the capacity to do the things that needed to be done in order to achieve the
objectives that the Honourable Member correctly refers to. As a consequence of
that there’s been a very regular interaction between the NEPAD steering
committee, NEPAD secretariat and the regional economic communities to address
this matter. We have set up with the cooperation of our development partners a
specific fund based at the African Development Bank to assist precisely with
regard to this, to ensure that we are able to beef up the capacity, improve the
effectiveness of the regional economic communities, so that indeed they can
discharge our responsibilities with regard to this integration.

It is necessary. It has to be done. But I think that if our short term was
2007, we would have to extend it a bit beyond that. Because it is indeed not
possible that we would achieve this African common market within short
timeframes.
  
Honourable Green (FD): Honourable President, there seem to be two schools of
thought in this debate on the eradication of poverty. On the one hand you have
the school of thought, and they often say this, that since the coming to power
of our new government since 1994 up till now there is a school of thought that
says in fact poverty has doubled and I think amongst those people is the South
African Institute of Race Relations with the recent 700-page report indicated
that that has in fact happened. On the other hand there is this school of
thought, and maybe this seems to be the strong school of thought, which says
that poverty has in fact been reduced in South Africa, given this social
spending, government social spending, the amount that has gone into grants,
electrification…
 
Mister President could you tell us as the leader of our nation, whether you
believe that poverty has significantly reduced by the present government?

President Thabo Mbeki: The Honourable Member is quite correct about the
serious challenges. You said a bit earlier, Madam Speaker, that the serious
challenge of poverty in our country has to be at the centre of everything that
we do, and therefore we shouldn’t respond to the issue of whether this school
of thought is right and the other one is wrong, as a matter of belief.

The Honourable Member asked “do you believe”. It shouldn’t be a matter of
belief. It really ought to be a matter of the actuality, the facts about what
actually is happening. And I am quite certain that there would be no logical
reason why with everything that has happened in the country that people are
poorer now than were in 1994. It’s an illogical proposition.

I do not know if you saw an article written by Dr. Gumede in our media
responding to the report of the Institute of Race Relations to which you refer.
I read the article because Dr. Gumede said I must read it. And he didn’t
express beliefs, he presented facts in that report, and indeed cited studies by
other academics in the country, which said precisely the opposite of what the
Institute of Race Relations had said.

I can explain clearly, Honourable Member, the facts on which I would base my
own conclusions that a school of thought which says that there’s been an
increase in poverty in the country would obviously be wrong. It relates to the
matter that was raised earlier concerning the Human Development Report of the
UNDP, because even they can’t deduce these facts, which would result in a
conclusion that the situation has got worse in the country since 1994. So
beyond belief, basing ourselves on fact, I’m quite sure that the Institute of
Race Relations was quite wrong.

QUESTION NO: 2
Mr P J Gomomo (ANC) to ask the President of the Republic:
Whether, with reference to the shortage of suitably skilled persons in the
Public Service which has given rise to weaknesses in service delivery, a lack
of sound financial administration and management and under-spending, including
on capital projects; the Government is considering any interventions to address
this challenge; if not, why not, if so, what interventions?

President Thabo Mbeki: Indeed there is a shortage of suitably skilled
persons in the public service which has given rise to the weaknesses in service
delivery. It should be made clear that skills shortages and weaknesses in
service delivery was identified and made public by the government.

In 2004, an audit was conducted across the 284 municipalities to assess
challenges they faced in delivering services to the public. The number one
challenge was identified as lack of skills, especially at management and hard
skills (engineering, welding, mechanical etc) levels. This audit gave rise to
Project Consolidate aimed at providing hands-on support and capacity building
at Local Government level.

Last year, Cabinet requested the Forum of South African Directors general to
assess capability and organization of this government to perform and deliver
socio-economic programmes. The number one challenge in the findings was
identified as shortage of skills. Following the discussions on capacity and
organisation of the state, complex as it has been, focused capacity assessments
were conducted by the Department of Public Service and Administration (DPSA) on
selected departments to determine the gaps and present corrective
recommendations to Cabinet. The departments that were assessed are Health,
Education, Justice and Constitutional Development, Housing and Trade and
Industry. To complement the assessments mentioned above, there have been a
number of studies conducted by the various sectors within the public service
that points to gaps in specific skills and occupations that are critical to the
effective implementation of broad government programmes for the developmental
state.

A plan of action has been developed for the Health and Education sectors for
development of targeted training programme for Hospital CEOs and reopening
nurses training colleges. Norms for principals and district staffing procedure
have been developed. A skills database has been developed and piloted in
Department of Trade and Industry (DTI), Justice and DPSA to focus into levels
of skills shortages across government.

This government is very serious about the skills required to ensure the
success of Accelerated Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa (ASGI-SA).
There are a number of interventions currently being undertaken by Government to
address this challenge. Five priority skills areas have been identified as
critical spheres for intervention. The Joint Initiative on Priority Skills
Acquisition (JIPSA) Technical Working Group is currently in the process of
developing concrete plans for the implementation of interventions to address
the following:

a. High level, world class engineering and planning skills for the ‘network
industries’ – transport, communications, energy.
b. City, urban and regional planning and engineering skills- address gaps at
municipal level
Artisanal and technical skills, with priority attention to infrastructure
development, housing and energy; and in other areas of FET provision identified
as being in strong demand in the labour market
c. Management and planning skills in education and health
d. Mathematics, science, ICT and language competence in public schooling.
Old Mutual Business School, in conjunction with the Office of the Deputy
President, will launch a suite of foundational project management training to
100 employees within local government, in support of ASGI-SA and JIPSA in
particular.

The Infrastructure Delivery Improvement Programme (IDIP) targeted at
provinces was initiated by the National Treasury. It comprises a comprehensive
Project Management and Infrastructure Programme Management guidelines and
computer spreadsheet tools for provincial departments to use. In addition,
consultants have been sent to provinces to train people in the use of the IDIP
toolkit and assist in analysis of provincial constraints with regards to
infrastructure delivery.

As mentioned in the introductory remarks, one of the key responses to the
challenge of poor capacity in the local government sector is Project
Consolidate. This initiative is aimed at providing hands-on support to targeted
municipalities across various areas: basic services and infrastructure; local
economic development; financial viability and financial management; municipal
transformation and institutional development as well as good governance and
community participation. Project Consolidate is directed at supporting
municipalities to build resident municipal technical and managerial
capacity.

We have identified a set of skills and competencies that must support
municipalities to provide sustainable services. These include: Programme
Management, Engineering (Civil, Mechanical and Electrical), Municipal Finance,
Local Economic Development, Human Resources Management and Development and
Public Participation. A number of Service Delivery Facilitators (SDFs) have
already been deployed to a number of targeted Project Consolidate
municipalities.

Honourable Gomomo (ANC): Madam Speaker, we recognise the importance of
creating an enabling environment for a single public service. How far have we
gotten to ensure a more harmonious public service across the three spheres of
government? How far has the government come with the establishment of
multi-purpose community service centres, in rural development nodes, from where
all our people can access a basket of basic services from government? I thank
you.

President Thabo Mbeki: The Honourable Member is aware that of course we’ve
taken the necessary decisions with regard to the steps that need to be taken
towards the creation of that single public service. Like him, we do indeed
believe that this is an important part of dealing with the challenge that he
posed, this capacity challenge and the possibility to speed up service delivery
and development. That’s a process which requires a lot of negotiation with all
of these stakeholders, including the trade unions. But that process is on
course, and I think that we’ll just have to wait for its outcome, but certainly
it’s proceeding at pace.

With regard to the multi-purpose centres, again, we have set necessary
targets to ensure that they’re available and accessible to our communities.
There are some timeframes that have been set, Honourable Member, with regard to
that. I can’t on my feet now remember exactly what dates we have set, but
certainly we have said we need to have these multi-purpose community centres
everywhere in our country, and gone beyond that to say that we would make sure
that they’re available in all of these areas by particular dates. And I’m sure
that if the Honourable Member checks the Government Website as to the
implementation of that program, you would see regular reports to indicate what
sort of progress we are making.

It is an important initiative, which has now been backed by the introduction
of E government activists that we are deploying among the people to assist them
to understand the computer technology that will be at these centres. Because
indeed one of the lessons has been that the mere fact that you’ve got that
infrastructure there doesn’t answer all your questions. You have to address the
ability of the population to access that infrastructure to reach government.
But certainly as I was saying, the Honourable Member would be able to see on
the Government Website where it reports on the Program of Action of the
government, the timeframes we have set and what we are doing with regard to
this matter.

Honourable Reverend Meshoe (ACDP): Honourable President, whilst the ACDP
appreciates that JIPSA has an initial timetable of approximately 18 months,
what progress has been made with the program, particularly relating to special
training programs and bringing back professionals and engineers that are
retired abroad, and also South Africans who are working outside who can help us
with the economy?

President Thabo Mbeki: As I’d indicated, Madam Speaker, the technical
committee, technical working group of JIPSA, is currently developing concrete
plans for the implementation of the interventions that are required. So it’s
working.

But there have been other interventions. I do not know if Minister Erwin
would allow me to say this. Alec, do you allow me? Thanks.

For instance, with regard to the state owned enterprises, you are perfectly
familiar with the very big infrastructure programs that have put in place as
part of the ASGISA program. They also have had to address this matter of skills
shortages, and one of the things they’ve done is to reach out to the South
Africans who left the country, in the various skills that are required -
engineering skills and so on. And they have really combed through that,
contacted people directly, to say are you ready to come home?

So there’s extensive work in all countries in the world that has been going
on to identify these people, to address them directly, each one of them
individually. To ask them to come back, and all of that.

So, it’s not just plans in the making, it’s work actually being done. So I
think that Honourable Meshoe referred correctly to this 18 month timeframe, I
think let’s give it a little bit more time. We will get these priority skills
addressed.

We were discussing in the Cabinet last week, reviewing again the issue of
the immigration regulations, to see whether the regulations themselves or the
implementation of the regulations serves as an obstacle to acquiring those
skills outside of the country. And indeed there’s work that is therefore going
on in Home Affairs as a result of that, to make sure that we remove obstacles
of that kind.

So I’m making an appeal that let’s give the project a few more days, and I’m
sure it will be able to produce the results that we need.

Honourable Minnie (DA): Mr. President, does the government agree with the
judgement of the Cape arbitration court that black candidates should get
preference over coloured candidates and members of other disadvantaged groups
for employment in the public sector?

Mr. President, if government does agree with this judgement, what are the
reasons? If government does not agree with the judgement, will the government
support amending legislation to allow for the equal treatment of all previously
disadvantaged groups? Thank you.

President Thabo Mbeki: Well, Madam Speaker, this is the first time I hear
about this decision of any arbitration process. And certainly the government
wouldn’t agree. Most certainly the government would not agree to this. Our
constitution and legislation that derives from it addresses in part the issue
of sections of our population that were previously disadvantaged. The coloured
community belongs among those sections of our population that were previously
disadvantaged. And therefore it would never be possible for the government to
say that the coloured people should be excluded with regard to those processes.
We therefore would indeed argue for the equal treatment to which you refer.

I do not believe that there’s any need for any changes in legislation with
regard to that. What might be necessary is that we pay a little closer
attention to what actually is being done, which might be at variance with
policy, and might be at variance with the law, but I do not believe that
there’ll be a need to change a law. We must respect what all of us agreed, that
one of the critical matters with regard to the transformation of the country is
to ensure that these previously disadvantaged millions in our country catch up
with the previously advantaged in our society.

Honourable Spies (FFPlus): Honourable President, regarding the bringing back
of skilled people into the public service, we have found with the private
database that we have launched last year, that we’ve got a couple or quite a
number of queries from people who used to work for the public service,
especially teachers who accepted severance packages, saying that they are not
being readmitted into the public service because of the severance packages
granted to them in the past. Now it has been announced by certain Ministers
that these measures will be looked at. But what is the actual position? Because
people still complain that they are being referred away, and told that
severance packages were paid out to them. Will this barrier of entry be
removed, or should we give other plans to these people?

President Thabo Mbeki: Let me suggest that the Honourable Member discuss
this matter with the Minister of Education. And I’m sure that it will be
possible to find some solution. I know that this matter relates also to people
in the health sector, who also took severance packages and now want to come
back to the public service. I would suggest that in the event that there are
people of this kind on that list, that you engage the relevant ministers and
I’m sure that they would be able to find solutions to that problem.
 

QUESTION NO: 3
The Leader of the Opposition (DA) to ask the President of the Republic:
Whether, in light of a Washington Post/Kaiser Foundation survey which found
that nearly two-thirds of South Africans disapprove of floor-crossing, the
Government will (a) abolish or (b) amend the legislation which enables
floor-crossing; if not, why not; if so, what steps will the Government take in
this regard?

President Thabo Mbeki: The government hasn’t discussed this particular
matter about crossing of the floor and what we might want to do about it. But
I’ll express a view about it, because the question was, whether the government
will abolish or amend legislation affecting this matter.

The Honourable Member of course is perfectly familiar with how this matter
has evolved over the years and the discussions that took place as we negotiated
the interim constitution, as we negotiated the constitution we adopted in 1996
and the decisions that were taken then, among which was to set up a committee
which was chaired by the Honourable Yunus Carrim. Indeed the legislation that
was finally adopted was based essentially on the matters that came out of the
work that had been done by that ad hoc committee headed by the Honourable Yunus
Carrim.

That committee said among other things that the basic argument for this
approach to do with floor crossing is that during the term of the legislature
there can be significant shifts in public opinion which will not warrant fresh
elections, but which have to be represented in the legislature. It said by
allowing groups of MPs to cross the floor these shifts of opinion may be
reflected in the legislature. Also, genuine differences of interpretation on
what mandate the electorate gave a party and how to implement it, can lead to
splits in the party and this should be allowed expression by way of crossing
the floor. The ability to cross the floor also curtails the power of the party
bosses and makes for a more vibrant political atmosphere.

In short, greater democracy and representivity is made possible through a
qualified freedom to cross the floor.

Now that was one of the arguments of the multi-party parliamentary committee
set up to look at this matter. That was one of the conclusions.

It discussed other things like how to structure the whole thing and I think
that one of the things that we could take note of in that regard is that it
took very seriously proposals that had been made by Professor Steytler, who was
then at UWC - I don’t know if he is still there - and Professor Schrire at the
University of Cape Town.

And I think in that context also we should pay some attention to the
judgement of the Constitutional Court with regard to this matter. When it
considered the issue that had been brought to it by the UDM it made some
important observations, which I think would be relevant to a discussion of this
matter.

A large majority of members of this house voted for that legislation. I
think the percentage was 84% [Interjection] Yes, I am quite sure that the
Freedom Front was against! But at that time there were some parties that even
argued for complete freedom to cross the floor with no restrictions – that
included the then Democratic Party, the New National Party, the PAC, the ACDP
and the ANC. The IFP seemed to be the only party in favour of restrictions in
defections.

I think, Madam Speaker, let members of parliament discuss this matter. I
think the process that was instituted after the adoption of the 1996
constitution would be a perfectly legitimate way of approaching this matter
again. It is an eminently political matter and I think the political parties
represented in this house have every right and duty to discuss this issue and
say whether the conditions which necessitated the institution of this
legislation then, as agreed by the overwhelming majority of the members of the
house and an overwhelming number of parties of this house, whether the
conditions have changed such that we need to change the legislation.

So I do not believe that we should refer this matter to the executive. I
believe that the political parties should engage it. There’s a process that’s
agreed for an annual review of the constitution by Parliament and maybe you
might want to take advantage of that to look at this. I’m told that during last
year’s review no member of the public made any submission on the matter of
floor crossing. But it may very well be that now for whatever the reason,
there’s sufficient passion on this matter to subject it to that particular
process.

But I think it must be done by Parliament, rather than the executive.
 
Leader of the Opposition (DA): Madam Speaker, I agree with the President.
Perhaps we should all take leave from the Jacob Zuma book and apologise, those
of us who supported the legislation - not that the legislation was wrong in
principle – whose practice, Mister President, has actually become a perversion
of the very necessary democratic reforms, which a lot of the proponents of the
legislation were in favour of.

And I think you would agree with me, Mister President, that the views of
legislators are important, but when the electorate has an opportunity to
express itself, as the electorate did recently on the subject of floor
crossing, which it can do at a municipal level, but cannot do because of our
closed-list PR system at a national level, it was noteworthy, Mister President,
that in the City of Cape Town and Pretoria, not a single floor crosser who
offered himself or herself for re-election was endorsed by the voters.

In other words, this opinion poll which suggests that two thirds of all
voters in South Africa in a representative sample are now against it, seem to
have been endorsed as recently as the first of March on the ground in the local
government election in respect of floor crossers.

And I would ask you sir, because unfortunately the majority party in the
legislature is excessively deferential to the executive in the legislature to
encourage the legislators in the majority party to do exactly what you said and
to look at this afresh. I thank you.
 
President Thabo Mbeki: I can only repeat what I’ve just said: that I believe
that the parties in parliament really should discuss this, that they decide
among themselves about how to do it, and look at everything and whatever the
conclusions might be arising out of this recent local government elections and
everything else. I think it is necessary to do that.

This poll that honourable Tony Leon refers too, I’m told is two and a half
years old. I wouldn’t describe it as current in the way that you described it,
but let’s discuss the matter. It is important.

Part of the reason I referred to the judgement of the Constitutional Court –
it is a very interesting judgement – is because it assesses the question
whether floor crossing, however organised, undermines democracy. And it says it
doesn’t. It may very well be that political opinion in the country is that
there should be changes with regard to this matter. But I don’t think we should
present any suggestion that in itself, the floor crossing is illegal, is a
subversion of democracy, compromises multi-party democracy or any of these
things and indeed I think the comments made by the Constitutional Court are
very instructive in this regard.
 
Honourable Koos van der Merwe (IFP): Mister President, we certainly welcome
your giving the green light for a discussion on this subject. And I’ve listened
carefully to you, Mister President, but to us the critical issue remains very
simple. Who did the voters vote for? Did they vote for a political party or did
they vote for individuals. You merely have to look at the ballot paper and you
will see that we voted for a political party and not for an individual. That
means that the seat in fact belongs to the party and not to individuals.
Accordingly, Mister President, the seat does not belong to an individual. The
act in our opinion is therefore inherently undemocratic and wrong, because it
allows an individual to in fact steal the seat of a party and give it to
another party.
 
President Thabo Mbeki: Honourable Member, you see, you say again that this
process is fundamentally undemocratic. Again I am saying that’s one of the
reasons I said I thought the members should look at what the Constitutional
Court was saying about this, because this thing is not unique to South Africa,
and it is done all around the world. There is nothing undemocratic about it and
indeed the judges said it may indeed very well be that the process would favour
a particular party, but that in itself was not necessarily undemocratic either.
But I would speak to the Honourable Nkosi Buthelezi to suggest that the
Honourable Koos van der Merwe should serve as the IFP representative in the
parliamentary processes discussing this matter.
 
Honourable Swart (DA): Honourable President, firstly the ACDP clearly opposes
the floor crossing and joined the honourable General Bantu Holomisa in the
Constitutional Court challenge, just as a matter of record, but as far as the
Constitutional Court is concerned, prior to the amendment of the constitution,
Honourable President, you might recall that in a certification judgement the
Constitutional Court made it very clear that an anti-defection clause, which
disallows floor crossing would be supportive of multi-party democracy and said,
“it also prevents parties in power from enticing members of small parties to
defect from the party upon the list that were elected to join the governing
party”. Admittedly that was prior to the later Constitutional Court hearing.
Honourable President, we as the ACDP welcome the openness and the opportunity
to discuss this issue anew and believe that at the very least, the 10%
threshold should be re-looked at. And so Honourable President we just request
that you consider the first Constitutional Court judgement and the issue of the
10% threshold. Thank you.
 
President Thabo Mbeki: Indeed the Honourable Member is quite correct to refer
to the earlier views of the Constitutional Court during the certification
process. That is correct. The ACDP did indeed join the UDM in this action, but
in the period before then, as the matter was discussed, the position of the
ACDP I think was somewhat different. By all means, Honourable Member, let the
parliament, the National Assembly, the NCOP, let them discuss this matter and
get it sorted out.

Honourable Chochan-Kota (ANC): Mister President, clearly from our side, on
this side of the house, we would be very happy to engage on this matter, which
we think is fundamental to our democratic design.

Of course, we have no reason to believe that in two years’ time we would be
asked to re-look at the issue yet again and you know, we simply just don’t know
where the opposition actually stands on this matter at any given point. Many
who have joined the ANC, Mister President, have been vilified by particularly
the Democratic Alliance, which claimed that they sold their seats for money and
positions. I don’t know if you have any thoughts on the matter of why it is
that people join the ANC. I wonder if part of the answer to this very
perplexing question could be found in the fact that our opposition as a whole
has great difficulty in sticking to its guns on matters of import to the
development of our democracy and the country as a whole.
 
President Thabo Mbeki: Well the best I can do is to tell the Honourable Member
why I joined the ANC.

The Honourable Leon says I was born into the ANC. I joined the ANC Youth
League when I was about 13 years old. When I was 13 days old I had no
possibility of joining the Youth League. If the ANC asks me today if I would
rejoin.

No but you see in the broader context of the discussion of this matter one
of the issues that I remember being raised then was the same point that was
made by this ad-hoc committee, that we have to visualise a society in the
process of change, that there had to be a certain dynamism in the evolution of
our society, part of which would reflect itself in changing attitudes,
certainly with regard, for instance, to the issue of stereotypes, such as
whereas I originally thought that Tony Leon was a racist to the bone, in
practice I would discover that no, he’s a democrat to the bone. But we would
inherit a lot of these stereotypes and prejudices from the past and therefore
there was need, as the situation evolved and as people got to understand better
the truth rather than the stereotype – the ANC is communist and terrorist and
all that - whereas the public mind is changing, you can’t have structures that
freeze everything.

So in that context there may indeed be people, who are members of the DA
today, because they are fearful of this terrible ANC, but in practice they see
that their fear was based on false propaganda of the past. But it may also be
true, vice versa, that these members of the ANC who have a particular view of
the Democratic Alliance get to know that it actually isn’t as bad as we thought
it was.

QUESTION NO: 4
Ms K.R. MAGAU (ANC):

In view of the upcoming elections in the Democratic Republic of Congo
(DRC)
(a) What progress has been made to achieve lasting peace in the DRC? and
(b) What is the relevance of this process to South Africa and the rest of the
continent?
N422E

President Thabo Mbeki: Since late 2002, considerable progress has been made
to achieve lasting peace in the Democratic Republic of Congo. And our own
constructive engagement as a country culminated in the landmark signing in
Pretoria of the global and all-inclusive agreement between the belligerents in
the Congolese conflict on 16 December 2002, which was then endorsed in the
final session of the inter-Congolese dialogue at Sun City in April 2003.

This paved the way for the setting up in June 2003 of the current
Transitional Government of National Unity, which drew in the previously warring
factions in the DRC.

That government was established, a two chamber parliament was established,
interim constitution negotiated and promulgated, and various other institutions
established.

I believe that all of this represents enormous strides forward that the DRC
took. And in December, this last December, Madam Chairperson as you know, on
the 18th the Congolese voted in a referendum to approve the constitution that
is now in force. a constitution that had been negotiated by the institutions
established as a result of the interim constitution. And what was very
encouraging about it was first of all the high level of registration of voters
for the referendum, and the high level of participation, as well of course the
fact that 84% of the electorate voted in support of that constitution.

That I think clearly demonstrated the commitment and the desire of the
people of the Congo to move to the democratic elections that they’d been
waiting for, for a number of decades.

That constitution was promulgated on the 18th of February this year, in a
ceremony which we were privileged to attend. Subsequent to that, Madam
Chairperson, the electoral law was approved and promulgated in March of this
year, which then paved the way for the holding of the elections later this
year, originally intended to be held before the 30th of June. For various
technical reasons it became impossible to do that, and therefore a new date for
the parliamentary elections and the first round of the presidential elections
has been set as the 30th of July this year.

I think that one of the things that is very interesting in this regard,
Madam Speaker, again reflecting the enthusiasm of the people for this electoral
democratic process, is the number of candidates. You have, for instance, 33
presidential candidates, reflecting that enthusiasm to participate in these
processes, and about 280 political parties. It’s a reflection I believe of that
enthusiasm.

So I would say, Madam Chairperson, that indeed progress has been made
towards achieving lasting peace in the DRC. But of course there are other
challenges, not just the political challenges and establishment of a democratic
system, but matters that relate to addressing the socioeconomic challenges in
the country. And in that context the government has indeed adopted an economic
program that seeks to rebuild the economy’s infrastructure and institutions, to
stabilise the microeconomic situation, to revive growth and investment in the
social sectors, to reduce widespread poverty, and to combat corruption both in
the government and in the handling of the natural resources. There are other
campaigns that have been launched in the country, for instance an
anti-corruption Operation Clean Hands that was launched in October 2005,
resulting in the arrest of a number of high ranking government officials some
of whom had been involved in the mismanagement of tax revenues between 2001 and
2005.

We are very deeply involved, Madam Chairperson, in these processes in the
Congo. Our Department of Defence, the National Defence Force, the Police
Service, Home Affairs, Public Service and Administration, Independent Electoral
Commission, all of them are involved in assisting the DRC to progress towards
the elections and its reconstruction in the future.

Clearly the DRC, Madam Chairperson, is a critically important part of what
has to happen on our continent as we talk about the renewal of Africa, because
of its size, its location, and its capacities. And therefore we do believe that
it is critically important for the future of the continent, not just the Congo,
that these Congolese processes must succeed.

Honourable Magau (ANC): Thank you, Honourable President. I must say that we
as South Africans welcome and appreciate the work that we are doing in
stabilising Africa through peaceful negotiations. May I just shortly ask the
President as to whether, other than our initiatives in the DRC and elsewhere in
Africa, where we were charged with facilitating peace processes, are there
other interventions by other governments of the world through the United
Nations aimed at promoting democracy, be it in DRC or anywhere in Africa, that
are aimed at ensuring that we create a peaceful world? Thank you.

President Thabo Mbeki: Yes, of course. In the DRC we work very closely with
the United Nations. As you know, the United Nations has a very big deployment
there of peacekeepers and other interventions that it is making. It is also
very deeply involved with regard to assisting in organising the forthcoming
elections. And we work very closely with MONUC and other structures of the
United Nations in that regard.

Belgium has also been very keenly interested to support these processes of
change in the DRC, and therefore we work closely with them as well. As I
mentioned, the National Defence Force is involved in training various armed
groups in the Congo, and participating in the formation of integrated brigades.
In that regard we work closely both with the Netherlands and the United
Kingdom, that are supporting us with regard to that, the United States, France,
others.

So yes indeed, there are many players in this process, and we try to
cooperate as much as we can with all of them, because all of us are pursuing
these common objectives. And I think that would be true also of other parts of
the world, other interventions that we have to make, whether it’s in the
Cote-d'Ivoire or in Sudan or the Comoros or elsewhere. So yes indeed, there are
others, and we do hope that the rest of the world will continue to remain
engaged with this challenge that we do ensure that there is peace and stability
and democracy on our continent.
 
Honourable Saeed Ali-Shah (DA): Honourable President, the role of countries
neighbouring the DRC to the east, particularly Rwanda and Uganda, merit a much
closer and critical look. Both countries were directly involved in the DRC and
still continue to exert significant influence over the evolving situation
there. They were and still are supporting the various factions and political
parties even in the DRC, in an effort to maintain their influence in the
country and to continue to benefit from its natural resources. This clearly
undermines the peace process and all our efforts there. This important factor
must be recognised and subsequently addressed. Mister President, my question
is, what plans do you have in place to get the international community and all
member states to address the situation in a firm and forthright manner and what
corrective or even punitive measures are put in place to deal with defaulters
or insurgent role players who are signatories to the relevant AU protocols and
peace treaties who continue to undermine the peace process?
 
President Thabo Mbeki: I think the Honourable Member knows things about the
current activities of Rwanda and Uganda with regard to the DRC, which I don’t
know. We’ve been working with Rwanda and Uganda and the Congo for many years
now, even when the old man, Kabila, who was unfortunately assassinated, even
before he reached Kinshasa during that military offensive. So we’ve been
working with Rwanda and Uganda for a very long time and we continue to do so
now.

We’d all agreed when the original agreement was negotiated and signed in
Lusaka arising out of the conflict that had taken place when both Uganda and
Rwanda had indeed gone into the Congo, that we had to do a lot of shuttling
among all of these countries, including Rwanda and Uganda, to persuade them to
come to an agreement, which fortunately they did. And I am saying that we’ve
been working with them ever since.

The Honourable Member may be aware that I was in Uganda last week and one of
the things that we discussed was a request from the government of Uganda for
South Africa to join a number of countries to handle a new problem that’s
arisen, which is the movement of units of the Lord’s Resistance Army of Uganda,
the LRA, from the Sudan into the Congo, which is something that needs to be
dealt with. And certainly the Ugandan government took the view that though you
know that these units of the Lord’s Resistance Army are attacking Uganda from
the Congo, it would be incorrect for Uganda to invade the Congo to deal with
that, and that the matter had to be dealt with differently. That is why they
asked us to join this group of countries to be able to manage this situation
between themselves and the Democratic Republic of Congo.

We maintain a similar relationship with DRC, Uganda and ourselves and I’d
like to ensure the Honourable Member that there’s nothing that Rwanda and
Uganda are doing now which is intended or actually results in subverting or
compromising the transitional processes in the DRC. Certainly, in all of the
regular contacts I’ve had with President Joseph Kabila of the DRC, he hasn’t
given me the report about these two countries that the Honourable Member has
just given. I think the situation is a bit different from what the Honourable
Member must have read in some newspaper.
 
Honourable Swart: Honourable President, we can be truly very proud of the
involvement of our defence force and other state institutions in the DRC.

Yesterday we received a full briefing, by the Electoral Commission which is
tasked with assisting in the DRC elections as you pointed out and I understand
the ballot papers are also being printed in South Africa for the DRC. However
one of the issues raised related to the Electoral Commission being requested to
assist in the DRC and the continent and the strain that this places upon their
budgetary resources. Would you agree honourable President that whilst we
welcome and are proud of the Electoral Commission assisting in the DRC and
other African states, we need to be mindful of the strain it places upon it and
ensure that donor organisations make timeous payments according to their
pledges, to prevent budgetary and capacity problems?
 
President Thabo Mbeki: It is a very important matter, Honourable Member. Indeed
our Electoral Commission has been working with the Congolese Electoral
Commission for some time now and there are people who have been sitting and
working in the Congo for some time now from the IEC. The Congolese IEC has
requested of IEC two, three months back for a deployment of an additional 300
people and we have agreed to that, because of the critical importance of this
election and to make sure that the Congo does indeed move to re-establish
democracy in the country.

The IEC has indeed discussed the budget implications of that kind of
deployment by the IEC with the government and I am quite certain that the
government would do whatever is necessary to make sure that it is able to
discharge its responsibilities.

You were correct about the printing of the ballot papers and again with
regard to that matter we have the necessary understanding with the United
Nations with regard to the financing and so on in support of the elections in
the Congo. And I would imagine that there is nobody who would contribute to a
failure of that democratic process in the Congo, simply because they didn’t
provide the necessary resources. Certainly from the point of view of the South
African government we will do what is necessary to make sure that our IEC
discharges its responsibilities properly.
 

Mr S J Njikelana (ANC) to ask the President of the Republic:

QUESTION NO: 5

Whether, with reference to the Nepad programme, any progress has been made
in the effort to (a) place Africa on the path of sustainable growth and
development and (b) achieve its integration in the world economy and body
politic; if not, why not; if so, what progress?

President Thabo Mbeki: Yes indeed, we are making progress in ensuring that
Africa is on the path of sustainable growth and development and the Honourable
Member may have noticed recent news reports that the overall economy on the
continent grew by 5.8% last year and that an almost similar growth rate is
expected this year.

The recording of this moderate but encouraging growth rate is attributable
in large measure to the adoption by the African countries of policies and
programmes that are informed by and aligned to the vision and the priorities of
Nepad. As Professor Wiseman Nkuhlu, a former head of the Nepad Steering
Committee and Secretariat, observed last year in his article entitled “The
journey so far”, leaders of the continent have not only taken charge of the
programme of the continent’s socio-economic development, but have also made
certain that Nepad policies and objectives become the internationally approved
framework for Africa’s development.

The latest report tabled by the Chief Executive Officer of the Nepad
Secretariat at the 14th Summit of the Nepad Heads of State and Government
Implementation Committee held in Khartoum in January, said that through the
efforts of African countries a solid foundation has been built for the
successful implementation of NEPAD, particularly in creating an environment
conducive to sustained development. The report further goes on to highlight
some of the achievements made thus far. And it mentions among other, but by no
means limited to that, the financing by the African Development Bank of some 16
projects to the tune of 630 million US dollars under the Short Term Action Plan
on Infrastructure. Furthermore, an additional 13 other projects involving an
estimated total cost of 523 million US dollars are in the 2006 Lending
Programme. The conclusion of a Memorandum of Understanding by
telecommunications entities of about 19 African countries for collaboration and
planning and implementing the Eastern African Submarine Cable System,
represents another milestone in the pilgrimage towards the goal of Africa’s
socioeconomic development.

Madam Chairperson, a further indicator of the progress being made to ensure
growth and development of the continent has been in the realm of the
development of Africa’s human and institutional capacities. In this connection
the African Capacity Building Foundation, an independent institution funded by
among others the African Development Bank, the World Bank and African
governments, has recently made available an amount of six and a half million
dollars, to bolster requisite capacities in the areas of banking and finance in
West Africa, poverty eradication programs in Burundi, Mozambique and Mali and
Sierra Leone, as well as a program relating to women and development on the
continent.

Regarding the latter part of the Honourable Member’s question, we have
already alluded to the considered view of Professor Nkuhlu, that NEPAD’s
policies and programs have become the internationally approved framework for
Africa’s development. This is indeed shown by the engagement by Africa’s
leaders with the G8 countries, as well as the OECD countries, whose aim has
been the forging of partnerships between Africa and the developed states, to
ensure the actualisation of NEPAD and its programs.

That collaboration has resulted in both African and developed countries
pledging themselves to deliver on their undertakings to guarantee socioeconomic
developments. And the Honourable Members will recall the commitments by the G8
at Gleneagles last July, to cancel the debt of some 16 African countries, as
well as to double aid to Africa to the amount of 25 billion dollars, and the
speeding up of efforts to bring about a fair, transparent and equitable global
trading system.

The draft communiqué of the African Partnership Forum meeting convened in
Maputo, Mozambique on the 4th and the 5th of May this year, says that attention
was paid at that meeting to Agriculture and Food Security, Infrastructure
Development, and HIV and AIDS. The participants agreed that efforts should aim
towards joint actions using the African Action Plan as a base, and that the
principle of ownership and partnership must guide the work of the NEPAD
Secretariat and the African Partnership Forum Support Unit in the task of
putting the Joint Plan of Action into operation at a Sectoral level.

It has become critical to create the climate necessary for attracting
investments to the continent. In this regard an important vehicle that was
decided at Gleneagles has been established to address this challenge, and that
is the Investment Climate Facility for Africa, which is targeted at further
improving conditions on our continent to facilitate higher rates of investment
by both domestic and foreign investors. The President of the African
Development Bank yesterday announced the support of the Development Bank for
this facility and its decision to put money into that facility.

With regard to all of these, Madam Chairperson, we must say that because of
the climate created by NEPAD, and the resultant engagements with the developed
world, there has been an increase in Development Assistance and improved
Foreign Direct Investment into Africa, reversing the decline the continent
experienced during the 1990s, into the beginning of the new millennium.

Honourable Njikelana (ANC): Thank you, Mr. President for the illustrative
answer. My follow-up question refers to the various international institutions
that one assumes also are interested on the advancement of NEPAD. My question
is as follows. To what extent has the South African government ensured the
integration of programs and resolutions of the specific institutions, the
Africa Commission, the United Nations and the Inter-Parliamentary Union? To
what extent has the government ensured that the programs and resolutions of
those institutions are inline with the advancement of NEPAD?

President Thabo Mbeki: As the Honourable Member knows, we are members of the
Heads of State and Government Implementation Committee of NEPAD. It is really
in that context rather than as South Africa that we would engage the rest of
the world, including the institutions that the Honourable Member mentions, with
regard to the NEPAD programs.

Currently there is a meeting in Burkina Faso, in Ouagadougou of the Economic
Commission for Africa and the African Development Bank, which do indeed have on
their agenda how to implement and ensure the promotion of the NEPAD programs.
It’s in that context that I mentioned that the African Development Bank
President yesterday announced the decision of the African Development Bank to
support the Investment Climate Facility, which is part of those NEPAD
programs.

So indeed the NEPAD Steering Committee and the NEPAD Secretariat have sought
to interact as closely as they can with all of those bodies, to make sure that
they come on board.

I mention just one last thing, Madam Speaker, in this regard. For a long
time the World Bank programs on the African continent have been based on
bilateral agreements between the World Bank and individual countries. The NEPAD
Steering Committee has engaged the World Bank with regard to this to say, we
are not saying those programs must stop, but we are also looking at the matter
of African integration (the matter that was raised by the Honourable Suzanne
Vos) and therefore that it is important that the World Bank must also change
its procedures to be able to handle regional projects rather than just country
projects.

As a consequence the World Bank agreed and in our region here the very first
project is to provide something over 400 million dollars to build an integrated
electrical system, connecting the DRC, Zambia, Malawi, Tanzania. That’s one of
those NEPAD regional projects.

So I’m saying that certainly the NEPAD Steering Committee seeks to engage
all of these bodies to make sure that in terms of their own interventions in
Africa, they do so within that NEPAD framework.

Honourable Davidson (DA): I would like to ask the President whether he
agrees with me that in order to place Africa on a path of sustainable growth
and development, and indeed to integrate it into the body politic of the world,
one of the central issues - because indeed he referred to others - is the issue
referred to by our own Auditor General Fakie, at the International Conference
on Economic Crime yesterday, where he referred to, and I quote, “the rampant
increase in economic crime and corruption in both Africa and South Africa”.
Indeed he observed that in respect of South Africa the global economic crime
survey registered a 12% increase in both public and private sectors. But also
I’m sure he is aware of Transparency International’s Corruption Perception
Index, where if one looks over the last five years there’s been a dramatic
slide away as far as perception of corruption in Africa is concerned.

President Thabo Mbeki: Honourable Member, indeed it’s one of these
critically important matters that the whole continent has recognised that we
have to respond properly to, these issues of corruption, good economic
governance, good corporate governance.

You would recall that I referred for instance to a campaign that even during
its transition the interim government of the Democratic Republic of Congo
launched, in order to deal with this problem, and I am sure you would find that
in many, many countries around the continent that intervention to deal with
this problem of economic crimes. I’m sure you would have seen in the media a
few months back reports of actions for instance taken by the law enforcement
authorities here to deal with properties and things that had come to this
country from some individuals in Nigeria. That came about as a result of a
system of cooperation that exists between our law enforcement authorities here,
and the law enforcement authorities in Nigeria, to deal with this particular
issue.

So yes, it’s important. But I think that there are many, many interventions
that are taking place in very many countries around the continent to deal with
this. And I would imagine that as happens here that the more you expose
corruption and this kind of misbehaviour, the more the perception grows that
countries are corrupt. It’s a perverse outcome, because it suggests that if you
don’t talk about corruption and don’t fight it, then the perception will be
that there’s no corruption. I wouldn’t come to these negative views based on a
perception that there is an increase in the incidents of this kind of crime. It
is there, it’s prevalent, it’s serious, must be dealt with, is being dealt
with.

But I do not believe that it’s necessarily correct that the continent is
focused in the wrong direction with regard to this, because I think the
interventions that are being made in very many countries focus indeed on
changing the course of our continent with regard to this issue of economic
crimes and corruption. And I’m sure all of us are looking forward to listen to
the outcome of the Enron case in the United States. The fact that Enron was
caught, I do not believe necessarily means that the United States is becoming
more corrupt. But it highlights the fact that when you see a big case like
that, of course you’ll come to the conclusion that there’s major disaster, but
it’s an advance if those people are found guilty.

Honourable Madasa (ANC): Honourable President, there’s a Maputo resolution
calling for the integration of the NEPAD program to the AU processes. I
understand the matter will arise at the Gambia summit. My question is whether
precautions will be taken when this is done to ensure that it’s not done in a
form that will impede the progress that has been made, and the prospective
progress?

President Thabo Mbeki: Yes, it’s an important question. The Honourable
Member is correct. NEPAD of course is an AU program, first of all decided at
the last summit of the OAU in Lusaka. It is an AU program.

The view was that we were in the process then of establishing the new
African Union and that its institutions would not be strong enough at that
point, for instance, to move the headquarters of NEPAD from here to Addis
Ababa, the headquarters of the AU, but that time needed to be given for those
institutions of the African Union, the African Union Commission and all of its
elements, really to become properly established, and then of course to inherit
these particular structures. So the matter has been discussed in that way,
within that context.

Indeed it may very well be on the agenda of the AU summit in Gambia in July.
But I’m quite certain that in the consideration of this matter - and certainly
this has been the view of the chair of the AU Commission, President Konare, who
has been saying that it would be incorrect merely to satisfy an organisational
requirement that this institution of the AU must be based at the AU
headquarters, to act on that in a manner that kills NEPAD, so he’s been very
sensitive to this - I’m quite certain that in the discussion of the matter in
Gambia this would be one of the matters that would be taken into account, as to
whether in the light of the original concern that those new structures of the
AU would not be able to house and manage an important initiative like this,
whether they have now developed to the point where they can. And I’m quite
certain that that would be a central matter in deciding what we do next.

Mr C M Lowe (DA) to ask the President of the Republic:
(1) Whether he has taken note of the recent actions of striking security
industry workers, the damage and destruction caused by them to private and
state property and their alleged involvement in causing severe injury and even
death to some individuals; if not, why not; if so,
(2) Whether Cabinet will discuss steps to ensure that unions are held
accountable for those members who commit criminal acts while on strike; if not,
why not; if so, what steps?

President Thabo Mbeki: The Honourable Member raises a very important issue.
Yes, indeed Honourable Member, we’ve taken note of the recent actions of some
of the striking security industry workers, including what took place here in
Cape Town on Tuesday.

I would like to say, Honourable Member with regard to this, that we lost
many, many lives in the struggle to bring about democracy in this country. I’m
quite certain that all of us remember very clearly and very vividly the great
numbers of people who were being killed every day during the 1980s into the
beginning of the 1990s. Even as we sat here to adopt the 1996 constitution,
those killings were still taking place, in the trains and everywhere else, and
people would remember names like Shobashobane, would remember names like
Boipatong and so on. And all of us together as a country had said we must
establish this democracy in our country, which among other things then creates
all of the space that anybody would need in order to address whatever concerns
they have, peacefully.

So it has been a matter of great concern, that in this instance you will see
people who were on strike and with absolutely every right to go on strike, and
it’s a right that we must defend, but then doing things that are quite wrong,
things that are criminal.

You can’t go around breaking windows, breaking up cars, looting and - very,
very worrying too these reports, I do not know if they are correct - of people
being thrown out of trains. It takes us back to things that happened in the
late ‘80s and the beginning of the ‘90s. It can’t be right. It just cannot be
correct.

So it’s a matter of grave concern that, given all of the democratic space
that gives everyone the possibility to advance one’s purposes and win one’s
battles by peaceful means, you have violence of this kind taking place. It
can’t be right. And I do hope honourable chairperson that our people as a whole
must take this matter up. Here are commuters, thousands of commuters who want
to go to work and then somebody goes and torches a train. It impacts on these
thousands of workers who want to go to work. Now they’ve got to scramble to
find places in taxis and all sorts of problems. So I am saying that I believe
that our country really needs to stand up and say that enough is enough.

Most certainly, Madam Chairperson, the law enforcement authorities have to
act with the greatest vigour on this matter. There isn’t a single person in
this country, nobody, whose cause is so just that they’re allowed to kill other
people. No such person in our society.
 
Honourable Mister Louw (DA): Honourable President, thank you very much indeed
for your answer. Could I immediately just endorse everything that you’ve said
on behalf of the Democratic Alliance and strongly support the views that you’ve
expressed this afternoon.

Now Mister President, I actually asked this question a couple of weeks ago
after the Durban violent situation and as you’ve already pointed out in the two
or three weeks since then we’ve seen some more unfortunate deaths, we’ve seen
destruction just a few metres away from this very building 48 hours ago. There
is a constitutional guarantee to everybody to strike peacefully and we
certainly would endorse that as something that people have fought and died for
in this country, but next week on behalf of the Democratic Alliance I will
introduce into the Parliament private members’ legislation, making trade unions
responsible civilly and criminally for the work, the action, the destruction of
their members and I’d like to ask you whether you would endorse that
legislation? And whether you will not Sir, could I ask that whether you would
consider asking your government to declare a state of emergency within the CBD
of Cape Town, to ensure Mister President that the innocent people who were
injured and attacked, and the shop owners and the damage that was caused would
be re-compensated through that act?
 
President Thabo Mbeki: I really do believe that in the end the entrenchment of
our democratic system, its vitality, its vibrancy really does depend on the
commitment of all of us to make sure that that democratic system is entrenched,
and is vibrant. Because you can pass any number of laws but if it is not in the
mind that these values of democracy are part of the things that we own, the
laws will be disobeyed.

So I think the critical matter that we face now is to make sure that this
message goes out to all our people, to activate our people to really stand up
for the defence of all of their rights. The right to strike must be defended.
The right to peaceful demonstration must be defended. The right of choice and
for people to say, I decide to do this which may differ from what you are
doing. We need to get all of us to understand all of this.

You’ve seen during the course of these local government elections some other
people getting killed. Municipal councillors, even councillors that got
elected, even others before elections took place. What does that say? That
there are still some people who entertain these wrong ideas that they can
impose their will onto society by force of arms. But I am saying also you have
a situation in which we can’t sit paralysed as the population and not defend
these rights for which so many people sacrificed their lives. That’s the route
I would go.

I’m quite sure that when the private member’s bill is presented the house
will discuss that, which is perfectly legitimate to do that. But I would look
in a different direction to deal with this problem which has faced us in a
number of instances, burning of mayors houses and councillors houses and all
sorts of things which are quite wrong and really ought not be allowed.
 
Honourable Oliphant (ANC): Honourable President I think the matter is
adequately put and the trade unions do agree themselves that there is no place
for intimidation and violence in our labour relations discourse and that
strikes and demonstrations must be peaceful. They’ve also said that it is very
regrettable that some people, workers have engaged in these criminal activities
and that those who engaged in those must face the consequences of their
actions. That matter is also said by the trade unions themselves, but what I
want to point out is that there are two parties to this dispute, employers and
workers for that matter. And the employers in this instance we’re referring to
in the security sector, are refusing, continue to refuse to go to the
negotiations table.
 
Shall we encourage both parties to go to the table and sort out the matter?

President Thabo Mbeki: As the Honourable Member is aware, the Minister of
Labour, the Honourable Membathisi Mdladlana has indeed been urging a number of
times that the employers and the workers ought to engage one another in
negotiations and solve this problem. It is important. It has to happen. And the
Minister was quite correct and indeed there have been pressures on him to
intervene and he has explained very clearly what the law says and that the
government is not about to undermine the collective bargaining system in the
country.

So yes indeed, Honourable Member, you are quite right, but we have to insist
on this matter. Sure, those negotiations between employers and workers must
proceed, but there is absolutely nothing that entitles anybody, whatever the
circumstances, to engage in the violence that we’ve seen. If we allow it to
continue we’ll have anarchy in the country. Next time somebody disagrees with
the Honourable Oliphant and refuses to sit with him when they should sit,
bashes him on the head… we can’t say that is right. Oliphant would have said to
this person, we can’t have buts about this thing. It is wrong. It is wrong. It
is wrong. It is undermining our democratic system.
 
Honourable Bantu Holomisa (UDM): Honourable President, in the light of the
damage of property, vandalism, violence and suspected murders on the East Rand
trains, I would like to know from the President whether the government won’t
consider appointing a committee from the Cabinet Security Cluster with the
Department of Labour to look into developing peaceful march regulations, which
would among other things ban the carrying of any weapons, be it traditional or
otherwise during marches, as well as banning intimidation of non-striking
workers and employers. This matter must be looked at from the constitutional
perspective and the wide variety of human rights that violent strikers have
trampled upon.

President Thabo Mbeki: I would say honourable Holomisa that the Justice
Cluster has indeed met to discuss this issue, not only about the strike, but
generally when you’ve had issues of this kind. Perhaps they might want to look
at the law and the regulations, as the Honourable Member is saying, that affect
public demonstrations to see whether there is anything that we need to do in
that regard, but I am sure that we’ll raise that with them and follow up on
it.
 
Honourable Patricia de Lille (ID): I want to agree with the President that we
must condemn violence in whatever form and that there’s absolutely no
justification for violence. Last week I intervened and I spoke to both the
employers association and to the unions, trying to find an amicable solution.
But I want to share this with you Comrade President. While talking to some of
the workers I came across a company in Johannesburg, called Maxi Security. This
Company is receiving a government grant for training security guards. But in
fact they deploy them to go and work at something like R45 for a 12 hour shift.
So this strike has raised many other problems that they need to look into. And
my question today, I think the time has arrived that we must now begin to look
at a bargaining council for security workers, but also that we must appeal to
the Minister of Labour to set a minimum wage for the industry to avoid the kind
of … [Time for question expired]

President Thabo Mbeki: I know Honourable Member that the Minister of Labour
has indeed been concerned about a whole variety of matters, with regard to the
workers in the security industry, a whole variety of matters which have to do
with wage levels, which have got to do with protection of jobs, which have got
to do with health, social pensions, working hours - a whole range of matters
like this. Even this question has been discussed about a bargaining
chamber.

But let’s get through this particular matter, and indeed as the Honourable
Oliphant said, let the employers and the workers get together and resolve this
thing. It’s not as though anybody is insensitive to the real issues that
confront the workers in this sector, but you’re not going to resolve that by
acting in the way that they are acting.

I’m quite certain that the Minister of Labour would be quite happy to engage
you, Honourable de Lille, to look precisely at these questions, including the
matter of this SETA if they’re not in fact not doing training but doing other
things instead.

Transcription by Intranews Media Management

Issued by: The Presidency
18 May 2006
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