17 May 2007
Question 1: Ms LM Mashiane African National Congress (ANC):
In light of the recent protests regarding service delivery, what is the
government doing to ensure that organs of state are more effective in
responding to the needs of poor communities?
The President: With regard to this question concerning service delivery, I
do hope that honourable members would indeed revisit reports that the executive
provides to this House from time to time, which address this issue of the
challenges that are facing our municipalities, because I am quite certain that
those reports would indicate that despite the fact that indeed we have many
problems, progress is being made to address these challenges of service
delivery.
I am sure we are also aware that the protests to which the honourable member
refers are at times the result of the issues of relationships and dynamics
within local structures of political parties, particularly those that are in
office and between these parties and the structures of civil society. Added to
this is the problem of competition for local resources.
These are critical matters that cannot be ignored when dealing with the
issues raised by honourable member. We are however confident that where the
protests are driven in large measure by the dynamics we have mentioned, the
leadership of relevant bodies will address whatever might be the relevant
issues.
We all know that the challenges facing especially some of our municipalities
are very huge and progress in providing good services to the people is at times
not what it should be. But fundamentally, all of us need to understand the huge
amount of work that must be done to eradicate the legacy of centuries of
colonialism and apartheid. None of us should pretend that it will be easy to
address this challenge. It is important that all of us should tell the people
the truth in this regard that it will take time to realise the goal of a better
life for all.
Some of the problems with regard to service delivery arise because of
reasons such as lack of the necessary management and technical capacity,
critical vacant posts that are filled for long periods of time, negligence and
mal-administration, insufficient engagement between councillors and their
communities and in some instances acts of corruption. But, I must say that not
all municipalities experience these problems.
There are various measures that government has taken to ensure that organs
of state respond effectively and efficiently to the needs of communities. Last
year the extended Cabinet Lekgotla endorsed a five-year Local Government
Strategic Agenda, whose central objective is to ensure that by the end of the
second term of the democratic government structures in 2011 at the latest, the
local sphere of government is provided with the institutional capacity and the
necessary resources to discharge its constitutional mandate.
In this regard, government has asked relevant government departments at
provincial and national levels to develop measures and implementation plans so
as to ensure hands-on support for the municipalities.
Clearly, it is important for the National Assembly, the National Council of
Provinces (NCOP) and provincial legislatures to play their oversight roles to
ensure that these measures and plans are implemented. With regard to capacity
challenges including the matter of managerial and technical skills, there are a
number of special initiatives that government is implementing. These include
Siyenzamanje and Project Consolidate. Through Project Consolidate, a total of
281 experts had been deployed to the 85 Project Consolidate municipalities by
the end of 2006.
The deployment of these professionals to the identified municipalities has
resulted in noticeable improvements in provision of services, in areas of
planning, as well as financial and project management. Government is also
working to ensure that there is compliance and implementation of municipal
performance regulations. In this regard, there are programmes in place to make
certain that all municipal managers sign their performance agreements. Progress
has also been made with regard to filling critical vacant posts in the various
municipalities. I have run out of time Madam Speaker.
The Speaker: You will get more time, Honourable President. Honourable
Tsenoli will speak on behalf Mashiane.
Mr SL Tsenoli (on behalf of Mashiane): Madam Speaker, I thank Comrade
President for the response he has already given. I assume that he will proceed
to do so.
But I would just want us to understand that in addition to the issues you
have raised so far, there is a concern with the reportage of these protests,
but also with the role of our own internal capacities across the board to deal
with conflict effectively.
To what extend do you think this indeed is one of the challenges we have to
deal with?
The President: Madam Speaker, part of the reason I was saying that I do hope
honourable members would indeed have a look at what government occasionally or
regularly reports to the House about these issues, was to ensure that we have a
more objective understanding of the challenges that we face and don't get the
impression that because something erupts somewhere, this is generally affecting
all municipalities. So, any reporting that would suggest that there is that
general crisis facing the entire municipal system in the country would
obviously be incorrect.
I suppose with regard to the matter of the capacity to resolve conflicts
that this would vary from area to area, in part depending on the issue about
which there is conflict. But, indeed I agree that it would be important that at
all of these local levels where you find the manifestation of this, that indeed
whether it is political parties or government structures, that they need to
elaborate the mechanisms to resolve conflicts.
Very fundamental to that is this matter that I have mentioned of the need
for a constant contact between municipalities and communities that they
represent, because in many instances you get this kind of conflict because
there is a break in the connection between municipalities and the people. So,
people might very well act on the basis of wrong information because there is
no sufficient contact with municipalities, or municipalities may act wrongly
because they have no sufficient sense of what the feelings of the people which
are out on any particular issue.
I am saying that fundamental to that matter of resolution of these conflicts
is the need for the closest possible connection between the municipalities and
communities; the municipalities and ward committees and regular interaction. I
am sure that this will help a great deal with regard to solving those conflict
issues. Thanks Madam Speaker.
Dr R Rabinowitz: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr President, clearly government
has the will to improve service delivery, but it still remains a problem in
spite of all the efforts that have been undertaken, suggesting that the
problems lie elsewhere and are a combination of lack of efficiency, lack of
accountability and lack of capacity.
The Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) has always claimed that these would improve
if the Constitution underpinning all our legislation is amended. Firstly, to
produce greater accountability of political representatives for which we should
definitely have no floor-crossing but that's an aside.
Secondly, the division of power is made simpler and clearer and it is
decentralised not in a token fashion but through the principle subsidiary.
Thirdly, that our rights are more narrowly limited by a limitation clause
that is not based widely on freedom and equality but more narrowly on
necessity.
Fourthly, the institutions intended to protect our democracy such as the
Public Protector, Auditor-General Human Rights Commission, Independent
Electoral Commission and others are not answerable to ANC-dominated committees,
but are truly independent.
Do you not feel that it is time to revisit our Constitution in order to
address some of these issues?
The President: Not at all Madam Speaker. I don't think we need to revisit
the Constitution. One of the things that we are currently addressing is as you
know, the new system of local government came into operation in 2000; what we
didn't do was to assess the impact of that particularly on provincial
government.
Since we changed the system, whatever might have been correct in the period
from 1994 to 2000 with the system of local government as it was then, obviously
would have been impacted upon by what happens once we change the municipal
system of government.
So, that process is on course, to look at what it is that needs to be done
that might include re-delegation of powers and functions as between municipal
and local government. That is certainly one of the matters that need to be
addressed.
I really do believe that the Constitution and the legislation that we have,
are sufficient to ensure that we do indeed have a democratic and accountable
system of local government and really don't believe that the problems that have
been raised by the honourable Mashiane would be addressed by any constitutional
changes.
In that context, I was going to say, when I ran out of time, that there are
other things that we have to do and the honourable Rabinowitz referred to this
capacity problem. So, amongst other things we have carried out a comprehensive
orientation and training programme for newly-elected councillors to empower
them to be able to carry out their responsibilities, as well as attending to
the skills issue with regard to other officials at that level.
We have now started an orientation programme relating to the Batho Pele
values so that again, as I was saying that where you have this disjuncture and
disconnection between municipalities and communities, you then do get the kind
of problem that the hon. Mashiane was referring to that as our municipal
officials absorb and respect those Batho Pele principles and values, that would
certainly help with regard to this matter. Thanks Madam Speaker.
Mr K J Minnie: Madam Speaker, my follow up question is as follows and I
won't make a speech: whether in order to ensure the effectiveness of organs of
state, the hon. President is prepared to set reasonable targets for all
politicians who are responsible for service delivery departments and if they do
not meet these targets, would you force them to resign?
The President: Madam Speaker, ordinarily what happens is that national
government sets a programme for each of the various departments, portfolios and
therefore departments, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and so on. These are the
things we want to achieve and these are the timeframes within which to achieve
them.
As consequence, of course, you will see that the House deals with these
questions every year, we are currently dealing with these now. You then get
budget allocations which ultimately have to be approved by Parliament � budget
allocations which address those particular programmes.
I am saying, therefore, that ordinarily, yes indeed, all the politicians in
government have got targets to achieve. These are targets not of individual
politicians or individual Ministers or Deputy Ministers, but these are targets
of the government as a whole.
If there is any failure with regard to meeting those targets, it would be a
failure of the government as a whole. Obviously, particular Ministers and
Deputy Ministers are delegated to deal with particular aspects of
government.
I know the first thing that becomes of concern to the government is not so
much looking for ways and means by which to force people to resign, but to look
for ways and means to ensure that government programmes are implemented, so
that when there are problems - as obviously there are � they arise from time to
time, we would have a look at that as to say why is it that these targets are
not being met in a particular department and Ministry?
Having looked at that to say what corrective measures to take. And I believe
that's what we need to do so that indeed we do achieve these objectives which
every year we report to Parliament and as I say every year are financed by the
budget that is approved here.
Fortunately, we haven't had an instance since 1994, as far as I can
remember, where there was such dereliction of duty by any Minister or Deputy
Minister that it was necessary that such a Minister or Deputy Minister should
resign or be dismissed. I can't remember any such instance. But, without doubt,
if there was any instance of dereliction of duty on the part of any Minister, I
am quite certain that that would have its consequences. Thanks Madam
Speaker.
Ms S Rajbally: Madam Speaker, service delivery is very essential at
grass-root level. Our communities look forward to live in a clean and liveable
environment. Hon President, don't you think that there should be some sort of a
monitoring system in place to see that service delivery is working
effectively?
This can also assist in solving some of the problems facing service
delivery.
The President: Madam Speaker, I am sure the hon. member would be aware that
for some time the government has been working to refine its monitoring and
evaluation system precisely to address the matter that the hon. member is
raising. Yes, indeed, you are quite correct, it is important that there should
be that monitoring to ensure that what we have agreed needs to be done and in
fact done within the necessary frameworks.
There are a lot of things that happen. Perhaps we don't have enough time to
talk about these. For instance, the financial reporting systems in government
enabled the Treasury, for instance, to detect quite early instances here you
have underspending or overspending, as the case may be. That serves as an alert
and a flashlight that there is something that is going wrong in a particular
area. You will pick it up like that and it will be part of the monitoring
system. We would then be able to intervene.
We are certainly working on the completion and implementation of that
comprehensive monitoring and evaluation system, part of which is the reason we
decided to put the government programme on the government website to indicate
what this programme is, to indicate the timeframes and to indicate what we
wanted to achieve so that the general South African population has access to
this - of course, to also to assist the government to monitor the progress.
So, indeed the matter is important but I am saying it is a matter that is
being attended to.
Question 2: Mr D Gibson (DA) on behalf of Mr Tony Leon:
Whether the government has taken any action in the past six months to
resolve the growing crisis in Zimbabwe; if not, why not: if so, what action has
been taken to (a) help restore fundamental democratic freedoms, (b) protect
human rights and (c) facilitate negotiations between Zanu-PF and the Movement
for Democratic Change (MDC)?
The President: This of course is about Zimbabwe, Madam Speaker, as you know.
As the hon. Tony Leon is aware, an extraordinary Southern African Development
Community (SADC) summit of the heads of state and government was convened in
Dar es Salaam in March of this year, specifically to discuss political
developments in Lesotho, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and Zimbabwe.
With regard to Zimbabwe the relevant decision of the summit says:
"The extraordinary summit mandated his Excellency Thabo Mbeki to continue to
facilitate dialogue between the opposition and the government and report back
to the troika on progress."
Happily, both the government of Zimbabwe and the two Movement for Democratic
Change groups, the MDC groups, unconditionally accepted the decisions of the
summit, including our role as facilitator. We should of course remember that
Pres Mugabe participated in the Dar es Salaam summit meeting and was therefore
party to the decisions taken by the summit. Having been mandated by our region
we have indeed moved with the necessary speed to execute its directive and are
therefore engaged in dialogue with our Zimbabwean interlocutors. The hon.
member will undoubtedly understand that it would be improper for us to divulge
details of these engagements, even before we have apprised the troika of the
SADC organ on politics and security as required in terms of our mandate. Indeed
I should also say that we have agreed with our Zimbabwean colleagues that all
of us should avoid conducting the dialogue through the media as this would be
counterproductive. However, I can confirm that the discussions are proceeding
very well. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.
Mr D Gibson: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr President, there's been a good
deal of criticism about your own attitude and that of many African leaders
towards Pres Mugabe. I do not propose dwelling on the past today. The decision
by the Pan-African Parliament (PAP) to send a fact-finding mission to Zimbabwe
signals a new concern on our continent for the sufferings of our brothers and
sisters in that country.
May I ask what steps do you propose taking to persuade Pres Mugabe to allow
the delegation into his country? We would not like the PAP parliamentarians
declared prohibited immigrants as the hon. Joe Seremane, Cosatu and I were two
years ago. [Interjections.]
The President: Well, I do not know that the government of Zimbabwe has said
anything about the proposed visit of a delegation of the Pan-African
Parliament, so I don't want to speculate on the matter. I think the question is
speculative. The hon. Gibson is asking, in the event that the government of
Zimbabwe says don't come, what do we do? Well, have they said it? So I don't
think we should speculate on the matter. Let's see what happens, but I do not
imagine that Zimbabwe, which is a member of the Pan-African Parliament, would
not to talk to members of the Pan-African Parliament. I don't see how that
would happen, but, as I say, I have no information at all that there is a
problem around this matter, so let's see. We'll wait and see what happens.
Mr M A Mncwango: Thank you, Mr President. My question relates to the
escalation of conflict in Zimbabwe. I would like to ask whether the President
can share with us some sort of road map towards solving this impasse in terms
of the African Union (AU) mandate.
I believe, Mr President, that that kind of road map will somewhat engender
hope in the people of Zimbabwe that indeed the President of the Republic of
South Africa is doing something.
The second one, Mr President, is what steps is the government taking to curb
the influx of political and economic refugees from Zimbabwe, which is now
quoted to be around 3,5 million?
The President: With regard to the first question, Madam Speaker, I don't
know what I can say in addition to what I've said already. As I've said, the
SADC summit said we should facilitate dialogue between the government and the
opposition in Zimbabwe. That's happening and the agenda for that interaction is
an agenda that would be agreed upon by the Zimbabwean parties and they're quite
free to put on the agenda any matter that they consider to be relevant to the
discussions, so I'm quite certain that the matters that the hon. Mncwango would
be matters that would serve on that agenda and would come out as an agreed way
forward in terms of all of these issues that affect Zimbabwe. There's no
limitation in terms of matters that would be put on the agenda by our
Zimbabwean interlocutors, so I'm quite certain that's where the matter would be
addressed and that's where the road map would come from, namely an agreement
among the Zimbabweans.
With regard to migration of people from Zimbabwe to South Africa, well, I
think the hon. member knows what the government tries to do consistent with our
own laws in that we do indeed act in the event that there are people who have
entered the country illegally and we manage to identify and arrest those. As
for Zimbabweans who enter South Africa legally, well, they enter South Africa
legally and there wouldn't be any need to do anything about that, but as to
this other influx of illegal people, I personally think it's something that we
have to live with.
The hon. member may remember the story which the Minister of Home Affairs
related a year or a bit longer ago that you have an interesting phenomenon
around Christmas time, when some Zimbabweans come and report themselves
officially to say they are illegal and that they should please be deported to
Zimbabwe. [Laughter.] We proceed to do that, so we pay for their fares to go
back to Zimbabwe, and the same person would then reappear a year later and say
he's illegal and that he should be deported to Zimbabwe. It's a manifestation
that is indeed difficult. You can't put a Great Wall of China between South
Africa and Zimbabwe to stop people walking across, so you would have this
phenomenon of people for whom we pay transport around Christmas time to go home
year after year. They're back after Easter. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr D Gibson: Mr President, I understand that the Zimbabwean government has
already rejected the fact-finding mission from the Pan-African Parliament. I
understand that they describe the PAP as a toothless talk-shop with no power.
Can we send a message to the Zimbabwean government that we Africans are proud
of the PAP, that we want to strengthen it and want to do whatever we can to
help solve Zimbabwe's problems?
The President: Well, I don't know who the 'we' is. But I'm sure that whoever
that 'we' is, of course, they are perfectly at liberty to communicate whatever
they wish to the government of Zimbabwe. With regard to ourselves, our
principal task currently is to discharge the mission that was given to us by
the SADC summit, and I'm quite certain that we mustn't be diverted from that.
It's critically important that the governing ruling party and the opposition in
Zimbabwe should get together and indeed together resolve the problems of
Zimbabwe. That's a critical matter and I'm quite certain that is the matter on
which we must continue to focus, but of course, as I was saying, the 'we' are
perfectly entitled to communicate whatever they wish to the government of
Zimbabwe. Even the PAP, I'm quite sure, would enter into its own dialogue with
the government of Zimbabwe, which is perfectly ok, but I'm saying with regard
to the work that we have to do, we have got to make absolutely certain, I'm
sure, that we focus on this principal task of facilitating this dialogue as was
said by the SADC summit to ensure that indeed we assist the people of Zimbabwe
to find a resolution to this whole complex of challenges that Zimbabwe faces.
Thanks, Madam Speaker.
Mr Sithole: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr President, I need to say thank you
for not allowing this House to be turned into a stock market where speculations
are rife. On that note, Mr President, will you agree that it could be important
for us as South Africa to intensify our work in regards to regional integration
and in fact expediting the process of approving the free movement of the
continent so as to make sure that we deal with this element of wanting to close
ourselves as South Africa in exclusion of our region and the continent.
The President: Yes, certainly, we are very firmly of the same view, hon.
member, that we need to speed up these processes of the integration of our
region. As the hon. member will remember, SADC even had an extraordinary summit
last year, precisely solely and exclusively to address that particular issue,
but of course it related mainly to questions of economic integration such as
trade and so on. Yes, indeed I would agree and processes are in place to
discuss this other question of the movement of populations among the countries
in the SADC region. Yes, indeed I think that the interdependence among our
countries in the region includes this question of the movement of people and
therefore we do want to put that on a firmer basis to contribute to that issue
of the integration of the region. Certainly, yes, hon. member, I would say that
we would continue to focus on that to try to expedite that particular process.
Thanks, Madam Speaker.
Question 3: Mr S Siboza (ANC):
What role is South Africa playing in the context of multilateral
institutions such as the United Nations and the African Union to facilitate the
attainment of peace and stability in the Darfur region of Sudan?
The President: Madam Speaker, this question relates to the situation in
Darfur in the Sudan, and our role in that context. I would therefore want to
say that we are among the first countries to help to conceptualise this
strategic framework to deal with that Darfur crisis in 2004. That framework was
based on two considerations: One of them was to find an inclusive political
solution to the situation, and secondly, it was the need to protect the
civilian population which culminated in the formation of the African Union
Mission In Sudan, AMIS.
On 28 May 2004, the parties to the Darfur conflict reached an agreement on
the modalities for the establishment of a ceasefire commission, and the
deployment of military observers in the region. In accordance with that
agreement, the Peace and Security Council of the African Union, with South
Africa as a member, took a decision to deploy military police and civilian
observers.
With the mandate of AMIS being to provide protection for the civilian
population, an agreement was reached with the United Nations to provide
humanitarian assistance to the civilian population affected by the
conflict.
However, the success of the mission was of course contingent on the success
of an inclusive political dialogue amongst the armed groups in Darfur and the
government of Sudan. That led to the signing of the Darfur Peace Agreement in
Abuja, Nigeria in May 2006.
Of course, from the beginning, that peace agreement was faced with
significant constraints due to the fact that not all of the rebel groups
supported the agreement.
Then, of course, the other problem was that the effectiveness of the African
Union Mission in Sudan, AMIS, continued to be hampered by lack of financial and
logistic resources and, accordingly, the need arose to approach the Security
Council of the United Nations to play its role in terms of its being a
custodian of international peace and security by supporting the efforts of
AMIS.
Towards the end of last year, the UN and the AU decided to deploy a joint
African Union, United Nations hybrid force � it's called the Hybrid
Peacekeeping Force for Darfur � which would be rolled out in three phases. So,
we have continued to play our role within the context of these multilateral
institutions to reach of all these agreements that I have just mentioned.
Indeed, more recently, we have had to intervene, both with the Sudanese
government and the United Nations Secretary-General, to try and break a
deadlock that had arisen around the matter of the deployment of that hybrid
force. To this end, we have regularly been in contact with the President of
Sudan and the government of Sudan to address all of these matters that served
as obstacles to the resolution of this problem.
As part of our contribution to that peace process in Darfur, we have
deployed 578 military personnel and 119 police officers to Darfur who are part
of that peacekeeping mission there as part of the African mission. We are
further committed to increase our capacity in the context of the United
Nations-African Union hybrid force.
As you would know, the Darfur Peace Agreement is modelled on the
comprehensive peace agreement that was signed between the Sudanese government
and the Sudan People Liberation Movement at the beginning of 2005. I am saying
that because it is important that we should succeed with regard to the
implementation of that Comprehensive Peace Agreement (CPA)because that would
indeed assist with regard to the resolution of the Darfur process.
In that context, the hon. member would know that South Africa leads the
African Union Post-Conflict and Reconstruction Committee for Sudan and is
therefore actively engaged continuously, with the Sudanese government, with
regard to that matter of post-conflict reconstruction to ensure that indeed we
move forward with regard to the CPA and which, as I have said, is important
with regard to the resolution of the Darfur conflict. Thanks, Madam
Speaker.
Mr S Siboza: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you, Comrade President, for
your response. Can the President please further elaborate whether the
Comprehensive Peace Agreement is being fully implemented, especially with
regard to the issue of wealth sharing and elimination of borders between north
and south? How will this affect the Darfur Peace Agreement and the
processes?
The President: Madam Speaker, we paid a working visit to Sudan last month.
We discussed this matter of the implementation of the Comprehensive Peace
Agreement, both with the federal government, led by President Bashir, and we
went to Juba in the south to meet the President of Southern Sudan and the
government there, President Salva Kiir.
Both of them reported that, indeed, a great deal of progress has been made
with regard to the implementation of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement. They're
in perfect accord about this, that indeed there is a lot of progress that is
being made in that regard.
The biggest outstanding issue remained the matter of the demarcation of the
borders between the north and the south, but they had then already agreed on a
particular process and a certain timeframe to resolve that matter, and were
quite confident that they would implement that which would lead to the
resolution of these outstanding issues that relate to the border, and therefore
have an impact on the matter of the revenue sharing, because that border will
indicate as to where the oil fields are � whether they are in the north or the
south � which is an important matter with regard to the revenue-sharing formula
that they are using.
I am saying that both of them said they had taken all the necessary
decisions about how to move that matter of the boundary, and were quite
confident, both sides, that they would resolve this matter.
I must say, finally, also that they had decided to institute a system of
regular monthly joint interaction between the leadership of the government of
Southern Sudan and the federal government to make sure that they have the
necessary monitoring and oversight of the implementation of the Comprehensive
Peace Agreement, and that that would facilitate speeding up that process of
implementation.
It is important, hon. member that we succeed with regard to this matter. As
I was saying, all of the major elements of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement
are directly relevant to the conflict that is taking place in Darfur, and
success with regard to the implementation of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement
would indicate the possibility for the resolution of the conflict in Darfur.
Thanks, Madam Speaker.
Mr W J Seremane: Thank you, Mr President, for the explanation, but with
further emphasis and clarification, one would like to concede that there
various areas in which South Africa can play its role in, for instance, by
providing infrastructural and technical expertise or financial support to shore
up and stabilise economic activity and sustainability in the area or even
providing that we do military peacekeeping forces in Darfur in conjunction with
the United Nations Peacekeeping Forces and mandate.
The question that is fundamental again for us is to come back to ask: With
all those roles or any roles that we are playing, how much do we synchronise
that with our obligations in terms of our budget and effective service delivery
in our country? Thank you.
The President: Madam Speaker, generally the position � I think the hon.
member is aware of this � is that the position the government has proceeded
from has been, ever since we came into government, that the future of our
continent is critically important with regard to the future of South Africa
itself. The questions of peace on the African continent are very directly
relevant to what happens to this country, questions of development on the
continent and so on.
We have tried our best to see what we can contribute to the progress that
the African continent needs to achieve, and indeed, with regard to this matter
that's raised about Darfur and so on, we have taken the same position that we
should do whatever we can to ensure the success of this peace process in Sudan,
because of the critical place that Sudan occupies.
As you know, it shares borders with nine countries on the African continent.
It is a link between the north and the south of the continent and, indeed, if
we can resolve these problems in Sudan � and that includes Darfur � that would
make a very big impact on where the continent as a whole is going.
It is a strategic country, and I am quite sure that we should contribute
whatever we can to the resolution of those conflicts. It does cost money to do
all of these things, but I think that our people understand that if we can
spend R1 in Sudan and it saves a human life, that that is R1 well spent.
I don't think we should put all these things in opposition, and say whatever
resources we might devote to these challenges of peace on our continent means
that we are denying our people the possibility to develop, because I am saying
that we can't insulate South Africa from the rest of the continent.
Therefore, what happens on the continent is really very directly of great
relevance to us, and as we have seen in the case of Zimbabwe with the question
that was put about the 3,5 million Zimbabweans here, we will continue with that
engagement with the rest of the African continent and, of course, continue with
doing what we have to do to meet our challenges domestically. Thanks, Madam
Speaker.
Mr J H van der Merwe: Madam Speaker, Mr President, I was privileged last
year to accompany a parliamentary delegation to Burundi and the Sudan, with Mr
Bapela and others.
Mr President, before that, I was very critical of your role in Africa. I
thought you were spending too much time there, and that you should spend more
time in South Africa. But then I saw the misery there, and I saw the poverty -
Burundi being the poorest country in the world - and the bloodshed, and I saw
all the misery there. Then I changed my view.
After that, I felt, Mr President, that it is a good thing that you are
involved there and South Africa, because we are alleviating the misery of so
many human beings there. I want you to strengthen our role there, and see that
their human rights and their lives are saved.
The Speaker: Hon President, I don't know whether you need to say anything
about that?
The President: Well, I only want to agree with the hon. Koos Van Der Merwe,
and to say that I am sure that the delegation to which the hon. Koos Van Der
Merwe refers, in its contacts with the ordinary people in Burundi and Sudan,
would also have heard this message from the ordinary people of these countries
� that they do expect South Africa to do something to help them. That is a
message that you would get around the African continent. There is a great deal
of confidence in this country, and a great deal of hope that we can do
something to assist with regard to the resolution of the various problems.
I am quite sure that anyone of our people who gets to hear that can't, when
ordinary people say, 'Please help,' turn around and walk away.
So, certainly, we will continue to do what we have to do and can do with
regard to assisting the rest of our continent, as we are assisting ourselves,
to overcome the problems that our continent is confronted with. Thanks, Madam
Speaker.
Question 4: Mrs P de Lille (ID):
(1) Whether any progress has been made regarding the formulation of policy
measures that will regulate the funding of political parties; if not, why not;
if so (a) when will such policies be made known, (b) when can the
implementation of these policies be expected and (c) through which institution
will the funding of political parties be governed?
(2) Whether he will make a statement on the matter?
The President: The hon. Patricia de Lille asked a question about legislation
that has to do with the funding of political parties. She asked what progress
we were making, if any, with regard to the formulation of legislative measures.
We are not formulating any legislative measures, Madam Speaker. So, there is no
process of that kind that is taking place in government. But, I'm sure that we
would all agree that political parties indeed do need resources to do their
work effectively because this is central to the strengthening of our
democracy.
The Public Funding of Represented Political Parties Act of 1997 provides a
regulatory framework for public funding of political parties represented in
legislatures. However, as we all know, private funding of political parties is
not regulated. My view with regard to this is that because the matter of
private funding affects all parties, Parliament is the appropriate forum for
political parties to discuss this matter. Therefore, in that context I would
say that let Parliament indeed engage the issue and see what it is that would
come out of that process. I would say that the executive would most certainly
respect any recommendation that might come from Parliament with regard to this
issue, so that we have a collective view of the political parties represented
in Parliament - as to how this matter should be handled. Thank you very much,
Madam Speaker.
Mrs P de Lille: Thank you, hon. President, for the answer. You are correct,
Mr President. During the Institute for Democracy in South Africa (IDASA) party
funding court case, the ANC told the court that the matter of private funding
should be dealt with by Parliament and not by courts. Now, two years later, Mr
President, there is still no Bill before Parliament and it thus seems that the
ANC has deliberately misled the court and had no intention of letting
Parliament deal with the matter. Now given the recent scandals of Imvume, Brett
Kebble, and British Aerospace, where both the ANC and the DA benefited
handsomely, and since South Africa has ratified the African Union Convention on
Preventing and Combating Corruption of 2003 that requires the regulation of
private funding based on the principle of transparency - that is in section 10
of the convention - the question then is: Does the government recognise its
obligation under the AU convention and when is it going to meet this
obligation. Has the government decided to obligate its position of leadership
on the issue of corruption in Africa? I thank you.
The President: Obviously, the hon. member didn't hear what I said. So, let
me say it again. It's our view, and which is what I tried to communicate, that
indeed the government has absolutely no objection to the approval of
legislation dealing with this matter. We noted the decisions that were made and
the comments that were made by the judge in the IDASA case that was heard in
the Cape High Court. Indeed, the judge said that it was not a matter to be
resolved by the court but it was a matter for Parliament to resolve and
therefore formulate the necessary legislation and not ask the courts to
legislate on the matter � as we agreed.
What I am saying is that, here is an opportunity for our political parties
that are sitting here to discuss what in fact is a complex matter. Various
parties have made comments about this over the years. I even remember comments
being made from one of our parties that they are fearful of this disclosure by
private donors because if, for instance, it was companies that were making
these donations as they do, some of them might indeed be denied contracts by
government because the ANC would be angry that such companies gave these
donations and therefore we needed to be careful. I'm saying it's a complex
matter and what I'm also saying is that it would be very good if this
leadership that sits here and in the NCOP engaged this matter and said how we
addressed it. The executive would absolutely respect the outcome of the
processes that would come from our Parliament with regard to this matter. So,
let's do that hon. De Lille. I think it would be good if our political
leadership that is sitting in this House did that.
The hon. De Lille made some reference to the ANC. The national chairperson
of the ANC sits in this House as a member. You might want to raise those sorts
of questions with him because I think that the hon. member has been in this
House long enough to know that I have insisted on the fact that when I stand
here as the President of the Republic of South Africa, I don't represent
political parties. So, you might want to ask the national chairperson of the
ANC with regard to the reference that you made about them. Thank you, Madam
Speaker.
Mr G R Morgan: Mr President, there has been considerable attention in recent
weeks about the Progressive Business Forum, an initiative run by the governing
party, and the associated access that it provides its members to briefings by
certain members of the Cabinet. In the light of possible conflicts of interest,
I would like to ask you, Mr President, whether you believe that it is
appropriate for access to be made available to government ministers to certain
sectors of the business community in exchange for monetary contributions to the
party to which those ministers belong. If not, why not? If so, how do you reach
that conclusion? Thank you.
The President: The hon. member will know that the Minister of Science and
Technology is the President of Azapo. I have never ever asked him what he does
as the leader of Azapo in terms of his political work and I wouldn't. Indeed, I
don't ask members of the ANC who serve in government what they are doing in the
ANC. So, hon. member, whatever they do as members of political parties � people
who serve in government, it's something that they do as members of political
parties.
Then, with regard to the question about the Progressive Business Forum that
is run by the ANC that you mentioned, again I would like to suggest that you
should ask the national chairperson of the ANC to stand here and answer for the
ANC about that. I am quite certain that he will be perfectly competent to
answer that question. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mrs S A Seaton: I hear what you are saying. I fully support and my party
would fully support that all political parties need funding. The question that
I want to pose has to some extent been answered in the last question. But, my
concern is still this: As the President, do you believe that it is right for
any political party to benefit financially by the services of any Cabinet
member or any senior executive through providing service to the community
through the electorate in the jobs that they are paid to do � the jobs that
they have been elected to do? Should any political party be benefiting from
that financially?
The President: I don't know if I understand the question at all because I
don't think there is any Minister or Deputy Minister who is ever put out for
hire to say that because they are Ministers or Deputy Ministers, they are going
to do this and a result they should be paid as follows. I have no instance of
that. I would be very glad if the hon. member could tell me which of these
ministers have hired themselves out to anybody because that would deserve
expulsion from the government. That's not on.
What attracts funders to particular political parties that they decide to
support would be a whole variety of things. I know, for instance, that the hon.
Dr Buthelezi is a very popular person. He is the principal fund raiser of the
IFP because the funders like him.
Chief M G Buthelezi: It is defamatory per se!
The President: I mean, hon. Seaton, I am quite sure that if you approached
me and said that the hon. Dr Buthelezi was going to see me for a fund raising
drive for the IFP, because I like him I would give funds. I would donate. So,
as I say, I really don't know. Donors will give donations to political parties
because of what they think of the particular parties. And if one particular
party is very popular among people who have got money, then it will get the
necessary money. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Question 5:Mr B J Mnyandu (ANC):
In light of the government's commitment to being part of multilateral
solutions to the world's global governance and security challenges, how is it
tackling the challenge of climate change (a) domestically and (b)
internationally?
The President: Madam Speaker, I'm quite certain that all of us agree that if
countries around the world fail to curb the emissions of harmful greenhouse
gases, global climate change will indeed intensify and the impact on
sustainable development would be severe.
Amidst less greenhouse gases compared to other continents, scientists
indicate that Africa indeed would be one of the worst-affected regions of the
world and that the impact of climate change could drastically alter the lives
of millions of people. This has been reiterated in a report released by the
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change earlier this year, concerning
particularly the impact on the African continent.
Our view has been that these climate change issues need to be addressed
through partnerships. Internally among ourselves, we are determined to ensure
that all levels of government implement integrated plans on this matter. Indeed
we do need an inclusive and effective multilateral agreement at the
international level.
When the Kyoto Protocol was first crafted, it was seen as a critical first
step in the battle against climate change. However, progress within this
framework has been qualified, Madam Speaker. But today I think all of us
understand that the current Kyoto regime is not adequate to achieve a future
that is sustainable or equitable. The first commitment period of the Kyoto
Protocol, of course as the hon. member knows, ends in 2012.
In considering a more effective climate regime beyond 2012, we understand
that all of us would have to do more, but on the basis of the agreed principle
of common but differentiated responsibilities, as agreed originally at the
Earth Summit in Rio in 1992.
Equity in the climate regime requires all of us to acknowledge that
developed countries achieved economic progress through more than a century of
cumulative emissions, thereby building greater institutional, technological and
financial capacities and greater adaptive capacity.
The resulting risk of harm to the atmosphere and increasingly to the climate
may not have been knowingly undertaken. However, that risk is now clearly
defined and can no longer be disregarded or excused by appeals to scientific
uncertainty. Therefore, Madam Speaker, we do indeed understand the urgency of
the need to act and understand that the costs of doing nothing about climate
change far outweigh those of taking concrete measures.
Given that the energy sector is the single largest source of emissions in
South Africa, our government's current technological interventions are aimed at
efficient energy use, diversifying energy sources, research and development of
new technologies that promote clean and lower-carbon-content energy sources. An
important element of making our energy development more sustainable is closing
the price gap between carbon-intensive energy systems and those that are more
climate-friendly.
We also recognise that even if greenhouse gas concentrations in the
atmosphere are stabilised now, some impacts of climate change will be felt for
decades to come. And because of our vulnerability to these impacts, which will
be exacerbated by poverty, we are treating the implementation of adaptation
strategies as a top priority.
In this regard, there are a number of measures that have been taken by
government. At national level, the work done across the government and in
partnership with business and civil society is co-ordinated through the
National Committee on Climate Change, led by the Department of Environmental
Affairs and Tourism.
In 2004 Cabinet approved the Climate Change Response Strategy. In terms of
that strategy, the national sector departments have done work to establish
their own sector strategies in order to ensure that the country can both adapt
to the impacts of climate change as well as reduce our own greenhouse gas
emissions.
As the hon. member would also know well, Madam Speaker, a national climate
change policy conference was held in October 2005 at which all affected
national departments, provinces and municipalities committed themselves to
collaborating and integrating plans and programmes relating to climate
change.
The Departments of Science and Technology, Health, Agriculture and Land
Affairs, Water Affairs and Forestry, Minerals and Energy, as well as
Environmental Affairs and Tourism, have all of them done extensive work on
climate change, and this includes integrating into the departments� programmes
those policies and measures that address the challenges of adapting to climate
change and reducing harmful emissions.
Mnu B J Mnyandu: Somlomo, Mongameli, ngibonga kakhulu ngempendulo enohlonze.
Nokho-ke Mongameli kubonakala sengathi kuningi okwenzekayo ngasemkhakheni
wenqubomgomo, uma sesiza kulolu daba oluphathelene nokuguquka kwesimo sezulu
futhi olusethusa ngokuthi umhlaba wonke ungase ushabalale. Kodwa-ke, ngokubuka
kwami, ngibona sengathi inselelo enkulu kuyoba ilapho sesiza khona ekwenziweni
kwezinto, esikubiza nge-practice. Uma sekwenziwa izinto, kufuneka wonke umuntu,
ocebile nompofu, omncane nomdala, akwazi ukuyiqonda kahle inqubomgomo futhi
enze njengalokhu kufanele ukuze wonke umuntu nesintu sonkana sikwazi ukubhekana
nale ntshabalalo yokuguquka kwesimo sezulu.
Ngabe uMongameli wanelisekile yini ngasemkhakheni wokwenza ukuthi bonke
abantu babe nolwazi � uma sesisuka laphaya kwinqubomgomo sesiza ekwenziweni
kwezinto ngempela � maqondana nokuthi wonke umuntu uyokwazi yini ukuthi lokho
akwenzayo akwenze azi kahle kamhlophe ukuthi ukwenzelani, nokuthi iyiphi
inselelo esibhekene nayo? Ngiyabonga.
The President: Madam Speaker, I would say that I believe that we do need to
do more to raise the level of awareness in the country about these challenges,
understanding, of course, the complexity of the issue and therefore the impact
that it would have on the communication matter.
Kodwa-ke ngempela ngiyavuma nami ukuthi kufanele ukuthi senze okuthe xaxa
ukuze bakwazi ukufunda ukuthi uma sikhuluma ngokuguquka kwesimo sezulu sisuke
sikhuluma ngani.
Even in terms of their own behaviour, to the extent that whatever behaviour
they would be engaged in impacts on this thing, kufuneka bazi ukuthi yini
okufanele bayenze ukuze babhekene nalesi simo.
But, as I was indicating, hon. member, the principal source of these
greenhouse gases in our country is our use of coal, with regard to the
generation of electricity. And therefore these matters that relate to energy
and how we deal with the energy question in this country become very important.
Therefore, the development of technologies to deal with that matter of how we
reduce the emissions in terms of the power stations becomes an important
matter. That is the reason we were raising questions about the diversification
of energy sources and so on, work that is being done in the various departments
that relates to all of these things.
The matter of saving of energy is important even in the context of the
supply of electricity, and we must push very hard to ensure that we use energy,
electricity, economically and not waste it. Even those reductions in terms of
the usage of electricity mean a reduction in the emission of those greenhouse
gases. But certainly, yes, it is important, I think, that we should do more to
familiarise the country with what is meant by all of this and what needs to be
done. Thanks, Madam Speaker.
Dr R Rabinowitz: Hon President, in spite of what you are saying � and we
commend you for the increased interest in renewables and reducing global
warming � there is still a sense out there amongst the people in the energy
industry that South Africa is protecting Eskom. Our targets for renewable
energy are still very low. For example, the White Paper suggests that we should
provide 4%, and that's only 100 000 gigawatt hours of energy by 2014.
One would like to hear that the government is taking more initiative as is
the case with a country such as Brazil, in which there are tax breaks for
industries that set up renewable energy factories. There is a great deal more
money spent on renewable energy: solar energy and wind energy in research and
development.
There are incentives to individuals who provide their own renewable energy
to the grid and they get a fixed feed in tariff. All of these and many others
are incentives that must come from government. But questions addressed to the
Minister of Finance in the past have suggested that government is not willing
to take the lead in providing tax incentives for the development of renewable
energy. There is still the feeling that government's thinking is along the
lines of coal and oil.
Is there not somewhere where we can hear reassuringly from you that there is
going to be greater investment in government initiatives to solve the energy
crisis? Thank you.
The President: Madam Speaker, I'm sure the hon. member is aware of the
electricity-generation regime in this country and the dependence on coal with
regard to the bulk of that electricity-generation. And I'm sure she's also
perfectly aware of the plans that have been announced particularly by the
Minister of Public Enterprises with regard to the further building up of the
infrastructure to address this particular challenge of electricity, of
power.
Indeed, some of the new power stations that are part of that programme will
rely on coal. This is reality. That is the reason I am saying that for us as a
country seriously critically to address this matter of greenhouse gas emissions
from here, we have to focus on the matter of the emission of the greenhouse
gases in the process of the generation of electricity.
The hon. member would know, therefore, that in that context, for instance,
some of the power stations that are being built would be gas-fired in order to
help address this matter. But centrally, to impact on this matter is to focus
on this issue of dealing with the emissions that come from the coal-fired power
stations.
Now, the hon. Deputy President has just reminded that we are also dealing
with this question of more generation through new nuclear power stations. All
of these things, gas, nuclear power and so on, focus on this.
The Departments of Science and Technology and Minerals and Energy had quite
a big programme with the Johannesburg University to deal with solar energy.
Indeed, that particular programme has gone very well, and I know that there are
discussions that have been taking place between that university and the
government departments with regard to what has been developed with regard to
solar energy. Indeed, I saw a demonstration of this, and it was said that the
technology that has been developed is a number of times cheaper than existing
technology with regard to the use of solar energy. So work is being done on
this.
I think that if we understand objectively what is happening in South Africa,
the critical matter is indeed this matter of addressing the real source of
greenhouse gases in our country, and we know what that source is. Therefore,
what we should do is to put more money in terms of ensuring that we develop
this technology to make these emissions from the power stations cleaner. That's
the critically important thing.
Work will go on with regard to this other matter of renewable sources. As I
was saying, there is this particular project, which in fact has been completed,
with regard to dealing with solar energy, which was handled jointly between the
government and the University of Johannesburg. I'm told that that technology is
already in the production stage, but it was to address this. So I wouldn't
agree that we are dragging our feet with regard to this matter, because we are
indeed concerned about the fact that we are one of the large emitters of
greenhouse gases in the world. But we need the electricity, and therefore we've
got to do something about dealing with those emissions. Thanks, Madam
Speaker.
Moulana M R Sayedali-Shah: Mr President, planning for ecological security is
a major part of promoting national security. As a matter of fact, South Africa
has an unsustainable ecological footprint. Whilst we may have formulated some
very progressive environmental legislation and policies and may have developed
some good plans and put in place measures, as you said, in response to the
challenges posed by climate change, what government seems to clearly lack is
the political will and capacity to implement and monitor all this wonderful
environmental legislation.
My question to you, Mr President, is: What do you intend doing to address
the lack of capacity in the national departments responsible for dealing with
the challenges of climate change in order to enable these relevant departments
to deal with the issues around climate change? Furthermore, the human resources
and the financial resources dedicated to these tasks seem to be quite
inadequate. Thank you.
The President: Madam Speaker, I would be pleased if the hon. member could
give me information about all these things that he is indicating. From what I
know, in terms of what is happening with regard to this matter, I do think that
indeed a great deal of work is being done in the various departments. I can
tell the hon. member what's being done at Minerals and Energy, Science and
Technology, Water Affairs, Agriculture and Land Affairs and so on, about these
matters.
If the hon. member has information that indicates that there might be lack
of capacity somewhere or that things are not being done, indeed I would really
like to see that information because I'm sure it would help us to then beef up
to address whatever shortfall might have been identified with regard to
this.
I don't know about lack of political will and how one measures that, but I
can detail what is happening with regard to this matter in a whole range of
departments. If the hon. member has information that might help us to improve
our performance, I would indeed be very pleased to look at it so that we can
then act on that matter. Thanks, Madam Speaker.
Mr C H F Greyling: Hon President, as a young South African, my party and I
are very concerned about the issue of climate change. We are also very aware of
the difficult task that South Africa faces in meeting our energy and
development needs, while at the same time reducing our greenhouse gas
emissions. We cannot shirk our responsibility, however, particularly as we are
the fourteenth largest emitter in the world and one of the most
energy-intensive in the world.
This is going to call for an integrated and progressive approach from all
government departments, but so far we have only really seen action from the
Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, with other government
Ministries not showing a similar commitment in terms of action and money.
For instance, we haven't seen any progressive reports from other government
department relating to the conference that you mentioned that took place in
2005.
The other issue, though, hon. President, relates to the cutting edge
technology that you mentioned that was produced by the University of
Johannesburg. Why is it that South Africa did not invest the R500 million to
build a factory to produce that cutting edge technology, but instead allowed
Germany to do so?
Hon President, are you prepared to commit South Africa to the renewable
energy revolution that is taking place in the world and to put substantial
amounts of money behind it instead of the paltry sum that is currently going
towards renewable energy development in South Africa? I thank you.
The President: Madam Speaker, what we might want to do is indeed to ask the
Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism to give a report here about
what's happening. The hon. Greyling says that the only one he sees of the
departments is the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism. The ones
that are out of sight are doing nothing. I think that's a wrong conclusion.
Perhaps the hon. Marthinus van Schalkwyk might want to come and give a
comprehensive report as to what government is doing and more information about
what is actually happening. It will not be a short report, I can assure you
that.
I said that there were discussions that have been taking place particularly
between the Departments of Science and Technology and Minerals and Energy, and
the University of Johannesburg about the technology that they had developed. I
wouldn't want, hon. member, to jump to any conclusions about this matter as to
why production went to Germany. I do not know who told you the reason that you
have just given as to how that happened. I wouldn't want to jump to that
conclusion as easily as you have. That is the reason, in fact, there was a need
for that discussion, because this was co-financed by government. So there's no
point at which the government took a decision that it would not invest in the
production capacity to use that technology; there's no such thing.
But, clearly, you have some information that we refused to build a plant for
R500 million, and that is the first time I heard of that. But, as I say, there
were discussions going on about this because the matter of the actual
development and progression of the technology to the production stage so that
indeed it becomes available, was indeed very central to the government's
thinking about this matter.
So, again, let me say, hon. member, that I know the general focus on the
matter of renewable sources of energy, which is important, but I am saying that
centrally and critically for us in this country, we need power,
electricity.
We've got all these plans that have been announced to increase our
generating capacity, and inevitably we are going to have to depend in part on
coal. Indeed as I was saying, we need nuclear, gas and biofuels, but centrally
where do these greenhouse gas emissions come from? They come from these power
stations that are coal-fired. And indeed precisely because we are concerned
about that, our central focus has got to be on that.
Even if we said that we were going to produce 4% of our energy from
renewable sources by year such and such, we'd still have the problem of the
96%. That's where we've got to focus.
If I were to get agitated about anything, I'd get agitated about the 96%,
not the 4%. I think that would make a bit more sense. Thanks, Madam
Speaker.
Issued by: Government Communications (GCIS)
17 May 2007
