World News Tonight 24 May 2006
The interview was on:
* investment,
* skills,
* World Trade Organisation (WTO) Doha negotiations,
* addressing poverty,
* land reform,
* HIV and AIDS,
* United Nations (UN) reform.
Q: Mr President, youâve been in London for the
bilateral meeting very much with trade as the emphasis, do you think South
Africa is getting the investment it merits?
Mbeki: I think we could do better but I think that one of the challenges
arises from the manner we have been presenting our selves because earlier on
soon after the country became democratic many of the questions posed by
investors were of the macro kind; what are you going do about interest rates
and budget deficits etc but what we need now is a more specific focus. So for
example we want to focus on the tourist sector; then we go to investors that
are interested in that sector. So to some extent the fault is really with us to
mount a more aggressive campaign, focused, to attract particular investors to
particular sectors and I think thatâs what we have to do
Q: Foreign investors do complain about red tape,
the difficult of getting workers into South Africa to start businesses?
Mbeki: I think thatâs part of the specific focus we need. Because we changed
the immigration law and regulations to respond to that challenge but what has
happened now is that issues of implementation have arisen. But with the more
specific approach, itâs then that people come up and say this is my specific
experience and then you can address it.
Q: The other problem is that the Western world is hungry for skilled people
and to some extent itâs poaching even your limited pool of talent. Is there any
thin you can do about that?
Mbeki: Well itâs a difficult one to deal with because it affects
professionals and skilled workers and even artisans. There are lots of turners
and plumbers and fitters who are actually working in the Middle East because of
the large construction programmes in the Middle East. Sometimes itâs just a
mere matter of being able to compete with the wages that you offer, but I think
what it emphasises is the need to jack up and expand our own programmes to
produce skilled people because I think its inevitable that there will be some
slippage, its affecting all countries in fact.
Q: How important for South Africa is the upcoming
trade round for South Africa and is it the agricultural, the non-agricultural
sectors that are the most important?
Mbeki: I think itâs more important if youâre talking about the African
continent, itâs more important for the countries other than South Africa. I
think thereâs a much bigger challenge. Take cotton or sugar which would be big
export items in terms of other African countries. The package of experts from
South Africa would be much more varied. Therefore the impact of agricultural
subsidies and all of that would be smaller on South Africa than other
countries. We are of course interested, it affects us to the extent that South
Africa's own development depends to a significant extent on the growth and
development of our neighbours so we do want them to prosper because that become
a condition for the prosperity of South Africa itself. So we are interested in
the issues of the WTO making the necessary progress. A critical matter is the
issue of agricultural subsidies and tariffs and so on and market access in
Europe and the United States (US) for Africans and the developing world for
agricultural products from this part of the world.
Q: Youâve spoken repeatedly about the need to
address poverty in South Africa. What are the major policy instruments you need
to pursue to address that?
Mbeki: One of them is this matter weâve just discussed, agriculture. Over 75
percent plus of the population on the African continent is rural, lives off
agriculture. And if you talk about African development you must talk about that
sector. People producing more, producing surpluses they can sell on the market
which means real infrastructure, higher productivity seeds fertiliser water all
of that and of course with those surplus the ability to sell them on the global
market. Itâs a critical matter for that, the agriculture, land issues, water
issues, are critical in terms of addressing poverty.
Q: And you would see land redistribution as
being essential to that?
Mbeki: Well thatâs a matter that affects a small minority of African
counties. That affects countries that had large settler population that came
out of Europe.
Q: It affects your country?
Mbeki: It affects South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwe, it affected Kenya in the
past and to a limited degree it affected Zambia. But it was those countries
with a large settler population, the Algerian the French.
Q: But in terms of South Africa whatâs needed in terms of land reforms?
Mbeki: Well what weâve said in South Africa is that the land redistribution
process, we need to expedite that. And to use the existing instruments in the
law, in the constitution, to do that and indeed weâve started doing that. But
one must bear in mind that manufacturing, mining services are such a large part
of the South African economy that even though you had this gross distribution
of land in South Africa, worse than anywhere else on the continent, the
pressure for more land, more distribution is to some extent minimised, reduced
by the fact that other sectors provide jobs rather than agriculture.
Q: Of course from a Northern perspective people look at what happened in
Zimbabwe and they see that as a way of making the situation worse not
better.
Mbeki: Sure. You canât mishandle, you canât handle that land distribution
process in a way that is counter productive. I mean weâve had instances in
South Africa where weâve had that land distribution process and people have
acquired land and then you discover that they actually needed the land to build
houses rather than grow vegetables and itâs not correct. So weâve had to
intervene in instances like that to say, this is agricultural land and
therefore you need to empower the new owners of that land to use it for those
purposes.
Q: There have also been instances of white farmers being intimidated and in
some instances murdered?
Mbeki: Well thatâs a general phenomenon, its incidents of crime in the
country. I donât think personally there have been criminal acts, actions,
directed specifically at white farmers. Its criminal actions that have affected
everybody?
Q: Itâs not something you have sympathy for to some extent?
Mbeki: Sure, absolutely, we disapprove. Weâve even had to institute a
special rural security programme of the police to deal with that matter because
theyâve become easier targets by virtue of the fact they are on these
individual farms, isolated homesteads and so on. So the rural safety plan that
we had to institute was to respond to that, because of course we canât approve
of it. But as I was saying I donât think there has been a specific criminal
campaign targeting white farmers but that some have indeed been victims
unfortunately of incidents of crime generally in the country.
Q: The HIV/AIDS issue has dominated a lot of the
focus on Africa. Do you believe that we effectively know what the solutions are
to that issue and itâs a question of the will and the resources to sort it
out?
Mbeki: Yes, I think that there is a much better understanding now of the
required responses than there mayâve been say eight to 10 years ago. I think
everybody would now say, for instance, you need a comprehensive approach to
this. That comprehensive approach includes attending to questions of nutrition
which are important for the general health of people. It requires a
comprehensive approach to illnesses and diseases that are endemic on the
continent. And indeed that is why the African continent welcomed very much the
global fund which didnât just say AIDS; it said tuberculosis (TB), malaria
because indeed that is the reality that we have to deal with all these
together. Of course there is a matter of treatment and the very important drive
that has been made to make these drugs affordable.
Q: And yet a minority of South Africa that are affected by these diseases
donât have access to the retroviral drugs at the moment?
Mbeki: Well, thereâs a UN conference on AIDS quite soon. And the UN report
on this matter of access to retroviral drugs says that South Africa has one of
the best programmes in the world in terms of access.
Q: I wasnât criticising South Africa, I was just wondering if the world is
helping South Africa enough?
Mbeki: No, well what we had to do was to ensure that we developed the health
infrastructure in such a manner that it is indeed able to handle that
treatment. I must say in this instance that we got a lot of support from the
Bill Clinton Foundation who brought in people who had handled these programmes
in the US and were able to assist us in regard to building that capacity in the
public health system to be able handle this and I think we have sufficient
resources then to handle the matter then onwards for ourselves.
Q: You mention Bill Clinton, of course there are other celebrities from pop
music, Bono, Bob Geldof, Angelina Jolie have got involved in campaigning on
this issue. What do you feel about western celebrities getting involved in that
way?
Mbeki: I think they have done a very good job in terms of raising the level
of consciousness about the challenges that faces billions of people. Iâm
talking about levels of consciousness in developed countries. Because not long
ago you had people talking about for instance aid fatigue in that the
populations in the Western countries were getting tired of this process of
supplying development assistance and so on. But you had the celebrities who
were easily recognisable who would stand up and say, you canât just do nothing
when people are dying from hunger. I think theyâve done a very good job saying
you canât stand by as people are dying of AIDS, because youâre saying there is
aid fatigue I think they have played a very important role and I hope they will
continue.
Q: Iâd like to ask you about South Africaâs
international role, being the dominant country in sub Saharan Africa. Do you
think it is time South Africa had a permanent seat on the Security Council?
Mbeki: Well I donât know. The matter is so far from resolution on how to
reconstitute the Security Council, even the numbers, so far from resolution
that to speculate about that particular issue of membership is a bit early. But
Iâd also like to say that my personal experience has been that as South Africa
has engaged a whole variety of international questions, weâve actually worked
very well even with the permanent members of the Security Council and the
Security Council itself without any requirement that weâre members theyâve
listened. So itâs probably not the beginning or the end of everything but it is
necessary to restructure. What Iâm saying is that membership of South Africa
may not be the beginning or the end of everything but the restructuring in
critical.
Q: Do you support the permanent five that are drawing up a resolution to put
pressure and offer incentives to Iran on its nuclear programme?
Mbeki: Well we think the best way to resolve this conflict and debate on
Iran and access to nuclear technology and nuclear energy is the really the
International Atomic Energy Agency.
Q: So no need for a further resolution?
Mbeki: Letâs try and resolve this matter at the International Atomic Energy
Agency. The reason we are really saying that is not out of disrespect for the
security council but we are very concerned that once matters like this get
taken up there, there is a danger of an escalating conflict because if the
security council decides something and the Iranians say we are not going to do
it, it obliges the security council to take the next step and we are really
fearful of adding yet another fire to a region of the world that is in flames
already. Youâve got Afghanistan then you cross the border you enter Iran and
across the border you have Iraq and then there is Palestine-Israel and then
there is Syria, next across the border from Iran is Syria and Lebanon. There is
too much volatility in this region. With regard to the Iranian thing letâs
resolve it in a manner that ensures that Iran has no nuclear weapons,
absolutely, but in a manner that doesnât result in the starting of another
fire.
Q: You have several years still to serve as President in your second term;
nonetheless the ANC has to choose a successor to you next year. How open do you
think that process of effectively choosing the third President of South Africa
is?
Mbeki: Well the ANC has its national conference in 2007 and that normal
conference would elect the leadership of the ANC and we would handle that in
the normal way the ANC handles that process. Some time next year the ANC and
the branches of the ANC and the regional structures will then make proposals
about whoâs in the National Executive Committee including the President. So
thatâll happen next year. The end of the two terms for me is 2009. And again
what we do is a similar process the branches and so on prepare list
committees.
Q: But do you have in your mind the identity of the man or woman youâd like
to see?
Mbeki: No I donât. No, no I donât. Actually I havenât thought that far in
terms of the person. As you see from the elections from 1994, the ANC enjoys
high confidence among the people and in all the elections since 1994 both the
national and the provincial and the local government elections, every election
the majority of the ANC has gone up, right up to the last local government
elections on 1 March this year. Itâs a demonstration of confidence amongst the
people which says to me that when the ANC is looking for leadership of the ANC
or the country, its got to focus very, very sharply on the matter of whether
this man or women would live up to that kind of expectation by the ordinary
people of our country. I think thatâs an obligation you canât walk away
from.
Q: I suppose you and Nelson Mandela, both well known before you took on your
roles as President. Do you find it unfair, a sense of risk, and a view in the
North that it all could go wrong that is not necessarily justified?
Mbeki: There is a concern which I think we understand. You know of course
part of whatâs happened is that many people have seen the new South Africa as
communicating a message of hope about the rest of the African continent at
least. So people are concerned that what they read as success as the harbinger
of other things that are yet to come in the rest of the continent that that
mustnât fail. So I know you get a sense of nervousness among many people around
the world is everything is alright; will South Africa survive; will democracy
survive; will you sustain your programmes addressing issues of poverty, gender
equality, non-racialism and all of that. Iâm saying itâs a concern that one can
understand. But we as South Africans would also say the same thing, we canât
afford failure.
Q: What is your feeling is South Africa the African exception of the model
that will be increasingly adopted throughout the continent?
Mbeki: No not a model. Not a model. Itâs a specific countryâ, South Africa.
It has its own particular specifics. But what I think is important is that
South Africa which really, objectively, truly does dispose of resources that
many other African countries donât have that we must be sensitive to the
contribution we should make using those resources to assist in the recovery and
the renewal of the African continent. Not act as a model, not impose ourselves
as a leader but to say there is something we can do to help to improve the
condition of the lives of the African people right through the Continent and
letâs do that.
Issued by: The Presidency
24 May 2006
