24 May 2006
* Zimbabwe
* Darfur
* Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC)
* G8 and African Agenda
* HIV and AIDS
* Presidential Succession
Zeinab Badawi
I asked President Mbeki why his policy of âquiet diplomacyâ had failed to yield
results in Zimbabwe:
Thabo Mbeki:
Well let me say first of all that I have never quite understood what is meant
by âquiet diplomacyâ. All diplomacy is quiet. There is no diplomacy that is
âshoutingâ â if it is âshoutingâ it ceases to be diplomacy. What we have done
is to engage the Zimbabwean government, to engage the opposition party, to
engage the religious leadership and to engage the Zimbabwean community
generally and we have said to them that they ought to act together, as
Zimbabweans, to find a solution to their problems. We have encouraged them to
sit together, to act together, to think together to solve these problems. And
thatâs all.
ZB:
But the criticism within the African Union (AU) even amongst some of your
fellow leaders is that your âsoftly-softlyâ approach has really achieved very
little, other than to see Robert Mugabe continue in power.
TM:
Well I havenât heard any African leaders say this. The African Union has never
discussed Zimbabwe in this context, there is no such decision, it doesnât
exist. But if there is a problem in Zimbabwe, the first people to blame are the
Zimbabweans. Not outsiders. So Iâm absolutely convinced that the problems of
Zimbabwe are going to be solved not by South Africans but by Zimbabweans. And
indeed the other interventions that have been made like sanctions and making a
lot of noise, havenât changed the situation in Zimbabwe either.
ZB:
Do you think not making a lot of noise is the right way? Is that perhaps why
you have been reluctant to publicly rebuke Robert Mugabe?
TM:
I think the critical matter is to assist the Zimbabweans to get together to
solve their problems. That is the critical issue. And I doubt that any shouting
from London is going to get the Zimbabweans together. But I think an engagement
and an encouragement of Zimbabweans to get together, either from London or from
South Africa, is really the best way to go.
ZB:
But the problems of Zimbabwe are huge problems for South Africa. You have
something like 3 million Zimbabweans living in South Africa, there are huge
economic problem. I mean for example, when did you last speak to Robert Mugabe
about the economic crisis in his country?
TM:
Why are you insisting that I must solve the problems of Zimbabwe?
ZB:
Because you are the main country in Africa. You are the richest and he is your
neighbour.
TM:
The main people who should solve the problems of Zimbabwe are Zimbabweans. You
have got to respect that.
ZB:
There are now press reports that you might seek a United Nations (UN) solution
to whatâs going on in Zimbabwe and that there might even be a deal struck so
that Robert Mugabe is given immunity from prosecution for human rights abuses
if he gives a timetable for his departure.
TM:
Well I donât know where all of that comes from. What I know is that the
Secretary-General of the UN, Kofi Annan, has been concerned about the situation
in Zimbabwe and has said that he would like to engage the government of
Zimbabwe to see what the UN could contribute in addressing the important
economic challenges that country faces, which result in growing impoverishment,
and also what the UN could do to normalise relations between Zimbabwe and the
rest of the world. Annan will be going to Zimbabwe in pursuit of those
outcomes. It is perfectly correct for the Secretary-General of the UN to say:
âIâd like to go to Zimbabwe to see whether we can find a solution to these
challenges that face Zimbabwe. And I am going to do that by engaging the
Zimbabweans in conversation.â I think its right that we would support that.
ZB:
Another key test that a lot commentators have seen as being an important one
for the AU is the success with which it have managed to police the conflict in
Darfur, in the Sudan. And now with talk of a UN force replacing the AU one, do
you think thatâs also a key test that the AU has failed?
TM:
No, the issue of the capping of the AU forces in Darfur by the UN is entirely
to do with resources. The fact of the matter is that with the best will in the
world, with the determination that there is on the African continent to help
solve the conflict in Darfur, we donât have the money. And even when we had to
move troops â Rwandan troops for instance into the Sudan, we had the assistance
of the US to fly them there.
ZB:
So you could have done the job if you had the money from the international
community?
TM:
If weâd had the resources of course we could do it.
ZB:
Would you have preferred that?
TM:
Iâm sure it would have been better for the rest of the world to supply the
resources so that we could increase the number of troops and do whatever else
is necessary.
ZB:
Do you have the troops? You could have met 20 000 perhaps, thatâs what people
are talking about.
TM:
Iâm absolutely sure we can.
ZB:
So in that case it does look as though your mantra of African solutions for
African problems is beginning to sound pretty hollow when you look at both
Darfur and Zimbabwe.
TM:
Well yes, I mean that would be [the case] if you donât know the African
continent. The African continent is not made up of Zimbabwe and Darfur. If you
just look at the many issues and challenges the continent has faced to which it
has responded very successfully, from the very beginning look for example to
the African response to the crisis in Liberia it was [an] African [response] in
the first place.
ZB:
Of course there is progress but then you also look at the DRC, whatâs going on
in Somalia now and you wonder where the AU is?
TM:
Whatâs wrong with the Congo? The Congo is making such excellent progress
towards the elections, has made such excellent progress with regard to the
observance of the peace agreement. I donât know what the problem is with the
Congo. It is doing very well.
ZB:
Would you like more assistance from the international community to assist
Africa in its efforts? For example you are here talking to Tony Blair. A year
ago he said Africa is at the top of the G8 agenda, but nearly a year on people
are saying: âYou havenât really made the promises good Mr Blair.â Do you
agree?
TM:
That again is not correct. I donât understand all this pessimism which always
refuses to recognise the truth. The G7 finance ministers, youâd remember, met
before the Gleneagles summit and said it was important to move with regard to
debt cancellation regarding a whole range of countries. That view was endorsed
at the G8 summit in Gleneagles and indeed the International Monetary Fund (IMF)
and the World Bank have completed the processes to write off those debts. So it
is very important that poor African countries 16 of them have their
multilateral debt totally written off. Why do you think itâs not important?
ZB:
Well I mean for example, people say that only a third of the money pledged has
actually materialised; translating promises into real concrete money is another
thing.
TM:
No, but you see I am trying to speak against this pessimism which is always
ready to recognise such truths as a negative and then refuses to see the
positive things. For instance, one of the decisions that was taken at
Gleneagles was that its important to establish an investment climate fund,
because one of the critical challenges that face the African continent is,
unlike Asia, unlike Latin America, it hasnât attracted these large volumes of
Finance Economic Development(FDI) that were critical even for the growth of
China. An investment climate facility is being established. Money has been
contributed by the G8 and by the African Development Bank to address that.
ZB:
All right, another key objective of the G8 agenda for Africa is to combat the
terrible problem of HIV and AIDS. Next week in the UN there is a major United
Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS) conference. I just want to ask you, Mr.
President, to set the record straight, because there have been many
controversial comments attributed to you about HIV/AIDS. Can I ask you clearly:
do you accept that there is a causal link between the HIV virus and AIDS?
TM:
I thought this question had died 10 years ago. I donât understand why. I have
been saying all the time; I am president of the Republic of South Africa. South
Africa you will see the report of the UN at this conference to which you are
referring. The UN will say in that report, that one of the best programmes
against HIV and AIDS in the whole world is South African. It deals with issues
of prevention, it deals with questions of safe sex, it deals with issues of
treatment comprehensive treatment it deals with all of these interventions that
people are suppose to be made with regard to HIV and AIDS. That programme is
based in a South African programme on the thesis, that indeed HIV causes AIDS.
Thatâs the thesis.
ZB:
And you accept that?
TM:
Iâm saying Iâm leading a government of a country and the program says that HIV
causes AIDS and therefore these are the responses that you must have in
place.
ZB:
All right, but people looked to you Mr. President, at the time, within your own
country amongst Aids activists, for real leadership. And they thought you were
derelict on this. For example, your Health Minister, some years ago, talked
about the fact that the African potato, lemon, olive oil and garlic could
actually prevent somebody getting HIV. Did you ever publicly repudiate that
comment?
TM:
No, no, no. That is misrepresentation.
ZB:
But did you publicly repudiate that comment?
TM:
She did not say that. She did not say that. What she said is what Prince
Charles was saying just now in Chile. Iâm sure you saw Prince Charles talking
about alternative medicines, and thatâs all she said. That, you see.
ZB:
Is that all she said or did she say âinstead of ARV drugs you should follow
this kind of dietâ?
TM:
Letâs listen to what Iâm saying. Unless you have alternative information.
ZB:
No, you clarify.
TM:
All Iâm saying is that she says and I agree with her fully if you look at the
Chinese, if you look at the Indians, if you look at the Peruvians, they are
very involved in developing traditional knowledge systems with regard to
medicines. It is very important that we donât have some arrogant contempt for
what are traditional medical systems.
ZB:
But not to supplant ARV. To complement or supplant?
TM:
Why do you insist on repeating something that is wrong?
ZB:
No, no, I was just seeking clarification from you, Mr. President, about whether
it supplants orâ¦
TM:
She says, thereforeâ¦you see there are certain traditional medicines in Africa
that you should use also. There are things which have to do with [the]
strengthening of the immune systems that are responding to immune deficiency,
which is critical and fundamental to the AIDS, to this particular syndrome.
ZB:
But I meanâ¦the point I am trying to make is that perhaps people are looking to
the South African government for leadership. For example your former deputy
president, Jacob Zuma, at his recent courtroom appearance, said that he thought
that taking a shower after having unprotected sex would be something that would
ward off the possibility of infection and people saying it is that kind of
attitude amongst South African leaders that had delayed the fightâ¦
TM:
Why does a statement made by one person become a statement made by South
African leaders? I am saying to you, look at the actual practice. There is no
better example, there are no better messages that the South African government
can send out to its own people and to the world than practice and what it
actually does. And Iâm saying to youâ¦wait until you just read the UN report,
which had to do a review of these programmes around the world, and itâll say
[that] one of the most outstanding programmes in the world is the South African
programme.
ZB:
Well maybe now, but the criticism was that you were a bit slow off the
mark.
TM:
Do you want us to talk history or do you want us to talk about what is
happening?
ZB:
I would just like to bring up one thing. During the Jacob Zuma trial we saw the
massive support that he had from many parts of South African society,
particularly amongst the youth and those that were not so well off. Are you at
all worried that there perhaps is a growing gulf between the haves and the
have-nots amongst Africaâs black community.
TM:
You know we had the local government elections now on the 1st of March 2006,
which I think would give a better test of what [the] opinion in the country is.
The ANC increased its majority. A number of local councils that are ANC are
larger now than five years ago; the proportion of the vote of the ANC went up.
I think itâs because millions of people believe that the ANC represents their
hopes.
ZB:
One final question. Your term runs out in 2009. You have talked about wanting
to see a woman succeed you. Does that mean you are not going to run again at
all? Does that mean you wouldnât want to see somebody like Jacob Zuma take
over?
TM:
I donât know why people hear things the way they like to hear themâ¦What I
saidâ¦2009 is, according to the constitutionâ¦I canât continue as president.
Thatâs the end of two terms, so thatâs that. So there will be a new president.
What Iâve said, when the question has been posed, Iâve said, of course,
certainly as the ANC and this government, we fully believe in gender equality.
And so, absolutely no problem if it is decided that our next president after
2009 is a woman. Very supportive. I have no problem with that. I donât know why
that is read as making a statement against any particular person. Iâm asserting
our very strong commitment to gender equality. And so indeed, there is no way
that I am going to say that the women of South Africa will not be ready to be
president of South Africa in 2009, because that would be wrong. They can take
over as president of South Africa today. And thatâs not making a statement
against anybody, its making a statement for something.
Issued by: The Presidency
24 May 2006
